There’s been a bit of discussion recently on various Amway-related websites about an energy drink called All in Energy, apparently marketed primarily through poker tourneys. All in Energy, much like XS Energy (marketed by Amway and Quixtar) comes in multiple flavours, is sugar free, and has large doses of B-vitamins and various energy-boosting herbs.
The internet “chatter” came about because it was noted in an article about a poker tournament sponsered by All in Energy that the CEO of All in Energy is a man by the name of Greg Duncan. XS Energy is co-owned by Amway and WWDB Triple Diamond Greg Duncan. An almost identical product, and the owner/management have the same name? Surely not coincidence?
No, it’s not coincidence. WWDB insiders tell me they are in fact one and the same Greg Duncan.
Some folk have queried why this is allowed, or if Quixtar is even aware of it. In the past year there’s been quite a deal of publicity about Quixtar’s “no-compete” rule - that is, that IBOs are not allowed to compete directly with Quixtar or Quixtar products while IBOs or for at least 6 months afterwards. Is Triple Diamond Greg Duncan actively breaking the rules? A quick check of the actual rules quickly clarifies things -
6.5.1. For purposes of this Rule 6.5., “Compete” means to own, manage, operate, consult for, be employed by, or participate as an independent distributor in (a) any other direct sales program using a multilevel or “network” marketing structure, or (b) any other enterprise that markets, through independent distributors, products or services functionally interchangeable with those offered or marketed by the Corporation.
The Quixtar rules clearly define “compete” as only applying to products marketed through network marketing/MLM or independent distributors. By marketing All in Energy drink, Greg Duncan is not breaking Quixtar’s rules.
In fact, or at least in my opinion, the success of All in Energy drink can be a marketing boost for Amway and Quixtar IBOs. How? Well, XS Energy drinks and All in Energy drinks are clearly very similar products. Indeed, I expect they come out of the same factory. But look at the prices -
XS Energy drink is more than a dollar cheaper, even at full retail price. Obviously it’s an even better deal for IBOs! So now, when trying to market XS, there’s a direct competitor on the market, with similar formulations, and IBOs can clearly point out that buying XS through Amway and Quixtar is a better deal.
UPDATE: The IBOAI has posted a response to the XS Energy/All in Energy rumours on the IBOAI Blog
Leave a comment below or Discuss this post on Amway Talk
I’ve personally met Greg Duncan, and for him to even think about competing is unlikely. It’s like handing out information for a colleague that has a water product that makes it out of thin air (true story). You aren’t competing, it’s just new.
Greg Duncan, along with his brother (who I also have met) just love what the business has given them. Very passionate about it. Heck, they are Triple Diamonds, with Brad and Julie about to go Crown.
And yeah, the price doesn’t even compete with XS, not to mention the flavors. It’s like just having another flavor of coffee or tea. Who cares?
Well, with respect there is no doubt he is competing here. But (a) it’s not against the rules (b) IMO, it’s actually beneficial to other IBOs.
That’s great news about Brad and Julie!
Here is a triple diamond who has been proclaiming from stage for years and years that Amway/Quixtar has the “best distribution and is the best business model in the world”. And here is a man who has proclaimed his passion, love and heart for Quixtar. And here is a man who is part owner of XS Energy which is one of Quixtar’s best sellers. And now he co-owns another business that sells a nearly identical energy drink -that absolutely competes with XS. And somehow, the Anquix and kingpin defenders come to his defense & say is is not competition and he has such a love for Quixtar. Give me a break.
Oh good grief. Why is it so few people today seem capable of reading, but can write? They post comments despite apparently not even having read the article!
Yes, All in Energy drink competes with XS Energy drink. That’s quite obvious. The point of the article is that it doesn’t break Quixtar’s “no compete” rule as they specifically define “compete” as applying only to products marketed through MLM etc.
As for the rest, get a clue.
Ibofightback,
My comment had absolutely nothing to do with your article. My comment was in response to the above comment by dig4truth. My comment didn’t even reference any Quixtar rule (not 6.5 or 6.5-1). My comment simply challenges dig4truth’s defense of Duncan as a passionate lover of Quixtar. Why is it that you are so defensive, even when no one is challenging you? I agree that it does not “technically” break Quixtar rules. However, it absolutely does break the spirit of what a triple diamond should be. It is very embarrassing to his downline who are asked by potential prospects, “If XS is so good and this is the best business model, then why is your upline owning a business tht makes a nearly identical product.
I read your blog almost daily. This is one of the very few times I have commented. Your silly “defensive reply” shows me why you can’t have a constructive conversation about the issues.
john, my mistake. You didn’t reference dig4truth’s post and your comment came after my comment so I assumed it was about the post as a whole, not dig4truth’s comment. I’ve been dealing with a few idiotic commentators in various places recently and that clouded my response.
I disagree about it “breaking the spirit” of being a Triple Diamond. In our LOS we teach that building an Amway business helps you to develop both the skills and extra cashflow to be able to invest in other businesses. I see nothing wrong with it, indeed I encourage it.
The question “If XS is so good and this is the best business model, then why is your upline owning a business that makes a nearly identical product?” has a simple answer -
Because there’s a business opportunity to do so!
I may think Double Choc Chip ice cream is the best ice cream, and with nuts sprinkled on it is the best way of eating it, but that doesn’t mean strawberry icecream in a cone isn’t a good option for other people, or something I couldn’t make money selling!
Direct sales and network marketing will never appeal to 100% of the market. If you had the ability, why on earth wouldn’t you want to take advantage of other market segments as well?
Heck, Jim Dornan started investing in shopping centers years ago.
Well only playing devil’s advocate here, what many of the critics will think or may say is this:
Why would Greg Duncan throw his team, and potential income for them and/or Quixtar IBOs as whole, under the bus.
Where he seems to be the sole beneficiary of the profits of this new company.
Personally I could care less, but know what the critics think as well.
It doesn’t throw his team or potential income for them under a bus. It increases market awareness of low-cal, mutli-flavour, healthy energy drinks and makes XS look a better deal.
Imagine if a company sold SA7 washing powder. For argument sake say it was *exactly* the same as SA8. They marketed heavily and it was hugely popular.
We meet a person using SA7, and offer them SA8 at a better price. How easy is that?
Ibofightback,
Thank you for your response. I appreciate your tenacity and commitment to this blog. For TB 2 IBO and others: Think of it this way. How many cases of Allinenergy drink do you think Duncan would like to sell? A thousand a week; 10,000 a week. I can assure you he is not hoping of selling a case or two but thousands and thousnads. If this is true (and Duncan never thinks small), that is thousands and tens of thousands of cases of energy drink that benefits only Duncan. That is tens of thousands of cases of energy drink that he will be promoting, advertising and pitching for that will never make a penny for any of the thousands of downline under him. In other words, Duncan’s passion is not Quixtar; not his downline - it is money. I ran the numbers on the cost for him to host a “family reunion”. He charges much-much more to attend that it costs him to host. Imagine having a family reunion and profiting hugely off of all of your family members. His business has always the business of making money at any expense and anyone’s expense. Furthermore, he always talks of “financial freedom” so we can leave the job. Now as CEO of a company, do you not think he is taking a job? A “job” that will require his time, commitment and promotion.
This might have been Greg’s DREAM.
You’ve got to admit - he’s effectively solved the Event Sales Rule dilemma, huh?
(I don’t recall Ada having mentioned Poker Tournaments as an approved venue) …
And IBOFB, what makes you believe the product is selling only at “list price” anyway?
Geary, what makes you believe XS is selling only at “list price” anyway?
You know have to say, the guy named the Truth About Amway sure has a lot to say, the question is what is he doing with his life that is so great for him to be so critical. You can sit in your high horse all day long and preach to the preacher, but the simple fact is, unless you are doing or living as they do, don’t sit here and preach that they don’t know what they are talking about, they are a scam, or even that we are a pyramid, the simple fact is I have watched countless people explode in this business and with AWESOME products like XS Energy Drinks. Here is another fact, how can you even prove that Greg Duncan is the same one. I challenge this type in Brad Duncan into google and you know its funny there is ANOTHER BRAD DUNCAN that owns a cutlery store. Oh no is that him could it be that Brad Duncan is a cutlery guy. NOPE its not him and you have no FACT That Greg Duncan is even the same guy.
Stop preaching and stop complaining. All you’ll ever do is complain and it gets tiring to listen to.
john - success in Amway is not about not working, it’s about having freedom of choice. I personally love starting and building businesses, and I expect even if I was a Crown Ambassador I would continue to do so. With regards to “running the numbers” for a conference, in my experience when most folk do that they tend to leave out an awful, awful lot of expenses. In any case, does he run his conferences, or does WWDB? WWDB clearly invested a lot of money developing their customer portals, which I believe are excellent. That money has to come from somewhere.
Jeremiah - I’m not at all sure who you are addressing in your comments? This site, The Truth About Amway is my site and I am unabashedly pro-Amway. If you are addressing me then you clearly haven’t read much of the site! This article on XS vs All in Energy is pro-Amway, and supportive of Greg Duncan. And it is the same Greg Duncan, I did check with people who know him before I made the post.
Ibofightback,
WWDB has very consistently taught the goal is to be “financial freedom” so one does not have to work any more. That way time can be spent on the truly important things (kids, grand kids, parents, friends, benevolent deeds, etc).
This has been the great mantra of WWDB. I have heard Duncan, Puryear, Kosage, Shores, Attalah, et al. Every one of them delivers the exact same message, only using different words. I can appreciate your appreciation of the Quixtar and mlm model. And I am not anti mlm in any way.
However, I have sat & listened to incredible deceptions by the above memtioned men. I have sat at FED, regional rallies, etc. I listened to Diamond David Shores speak about financial accountibility and financial integrity and how he was now financially free. At the time he was speaking, he hadn’t made his house payment in 6 months and his house was respossed. Puryear and all the other WWDB diamonds were aware of this. Dean Kosage has been bragging about being financially free since age 23 when in fact his divorce papers reveal that just a few years ago he was basically broke. I can go on but I think you get my point. These guys will says whatever it takes to get people to buy their CDs, etc. WWDB downline were told for 7 years that Quixtar is absolutely not Amway or any part of it. The entire IBOAI Board voted a no confidence vote in Quixtar when they discovered the name change back to Amway. I could go on and on and on. I have no problem with mlm. My concern is with the lack of integrity of the so called leders of the LOS.
John, I’ve never met or heard any of these guys, so I’m in no place to make a judgement. What I see are comments like yours, and not just from you, but I’ve also seen plenty of comments from other WWDB IBOs saying different things, for example many knew of the Duncan< ->XS Energy connection. There’s plenty of time to do good deeds and Amway and other businesses, I don’t see any disconnect there at all.
I’ve read the Kosage divorce papers and I’m not sure where you get the idea he was “basically broke”? He and his then wife were making $100,000/yr from Amway, it appears *after* business expenses, and this was before qualifying as Diamond. Liquid assets and debts were close to matched. Certainly in a far better finanical position than most people!
Ibofightback,
Yes, $100,000 a year of which his own declaration said about half was from “speaking and CDs - tools). Both he and his ex talked of the hours “they” had to put in. So let’s say they were working in excess of 40 hours a week. That means $50,000 a piece with absolutely no benefits like medical insurance, paid holidays, etc. They did not own a home & leased thier cars. They had a total of $5,000 in thier retirement. Now be honest: Do you think he was telling the truth all those years that he was proclaiming he was “retired” and financially free? This is called “make people believe you are rick so they will buy CDs from you and listen to your “wisdom” at functions.
John,
Where did Kosage say half was from speaking and tools? I have his reply declaration and can find no such thing. Larsen links to that as both declaration and reply declaration on his site, so I don’t have the original declaration. Larsen site has a quote he claims is from it, but he makes a claim “It appears that about 50% of their income came from the system side of the business” that just isn’t backed up by the quote he gave. For just one issue, founders platinums and emeralds receive quite significant bonuses that are paid yearly, not monthly. For quite obvious reasons, Kosage does not mention them in the paragraph quoted.
Hi John,
A question and two comments:
Regarding Shores: How do you know this?
Regarding G. Duncan and Family Reunion $$–just an FYI that he doesn’t have a Family Reunion, so it’s kind of hard to make money on a function that doesn’t exist.
Regarding Kosage–he built his Emeraldship before his marriage, so to break down their $$ that their *business* was generating in to two 40-hr/week salaries seems like comparing apples to oranges, don’t you think? After the divorce, he re-built his Emeraldship, built a Diamondship, and went on to EDC.
Let me throw in again here.
First, I was simply playing devil’s advocate with regards to what critics will say, be ready for it.
Second, Greg Duncan is an awesome leader, awesome business man, and really good at what he does. I have heard him speak and seen him live, shook his hand and looked him right in the eyes. he has a passion for this business and those he helps.
Third, John when someone says “Financial Freedom” it doesn’t mean that there is no work involved. Financial Freedom is being in control of where your money comes from. Meaning you write your own checks. Now, as I hope you know, in this business, even at the Diamond level “WORK” is still required. Now it may not be drawing the circles or contacting but you are still involved and it still requires your time and attention (especially if your goal is beyond Diamond).
Forth, John don’t even start on the system money debate. You will lose.
Hope that clarifies my position.
PS. Kosage is a man. Someone to admire and follow. The average IBO would have folded under the same circumstances.
*Note: I am not part of WWDB
John said “Both he and his ex talked of the hours “they” had to put in. So let’s say they were working in excess of 40 hours a week.”
How do you know how many hours they were putting in to their business? Does it say they were working more than 40hrs a week, or is that a guess by you?
I am all for people having varying opinions. If someone is critical of this industry or Amway Global specifically, based on their personal experiences and/or observations, than thats their right. But when someone starts mentioning specific names, claiming they know there character, and questioning their intergrity, I don’t appreciate or tolerate people speaking down about my friends/mentors!
John - Why don’t you get the Log out of your own eye and quit worrying about everyone else’s spec!
I’ll be back to address some of the false/pathetic conclusions after I go take some deep breaths and count to ten.
John said:
“WWDB has very consistently taught the goal is to be “financial freedom” so one does not have to work any more.” (Nice grammar)
WWDB teaches to go Ruby with solid parameters in order to replace your job income, giving greater control of your time and money. Like TB 2 IBO stated, being financially free and quiting your job doesn’t mean not working anymore. I find broke, lazy people define freedom as sitting in a lazyboy recliner, flipping through the channels, while accomplishing absolutely nothing.
I have to WORK to become a better husband. I have to WORK to become a better dad. I have to work to become a better….. In order to be successful and prosperous, you have to work at it for the rest of your life!
John said:
“I have sat & listened to incredible deceptions by the above memtioned men. I have sat at FED, regional rallies, etc.”
Funny. Because I also have sat and listened to these men. Except it was on a beach in Hollywood, Florida. David (Shores), Dino (Dean Kosage) and a bunch of others sitting in our swim trunks (Dean’s pretty ripped, David…not so much :-)) talking about the transformation and the future of this business. For 4.5 hours we talked about whats going on in the economy, what we need to do to provide for our families, and to continue to be impact players. Granted, I don’t have the incredible insight that others seem to have about every detail of their personal lives, but I’d match their character and integrity up against anybody. Men that aren’t afraid to lead. Men that love their families, and have heart and passion about this business.
TWS and others,
I can understand your “complete trust” of your upline and the other so called kingpins. Yet you have not contradicted what I have said. Fact # 1 - Shores foreclosure can be found by doing a simple search of the Flathead County Montana Clerk records on July 25, 2003, Title #1703627. This is the foreclosure on David and Debbie Shores home for nonpayment of mortgage since February of that year. Fact #2 - Shores did speak about financial accountability and responsibility and freedom at the 2003 FED. I was there. So he was teaching financial responsibility to thousands when he hadn’t made a payment on his own home in months & lost it to foreclosure.
Now, you can easily pull up Kosage’s own declaration in his divorce case. Be honest, this man has been claiming that he has been retired since age 23. This is absolutely not true. Look at his divorce documents and notice his total savings is about $5,000 as an emerald.
His own declaration describes his part of the “work” he must do to maintain his business. How does that reconcile with being retired?
As far as Duncan goes, he is taking money out of all of his downline’s pockets through, CDs, tapes, Kate, Premier membership, functions….
These guys are deceptive. For 7 years we were taught, Quixtar is not Amway - it is totally different. Well guess what, same company, same owners, same core products, and now going to have the same name. We were told that being on the system would lead to financial freedom in 2-5 years. Tell me, have you become financially free within 2-5 years, and if not, why not? The “system” success rate is so pathetic that there are less qualified diamonds in WWDB today than there were years ago. We were told we didn’t have to sell anything, just buy from ourselves and teach others to do the same. Now all we hear is retail, retail. We were taught the marvel of lifetime residual income for diamonds. Explain to me why Alcott and Gilmour aren’t on the WWDB success stories page any more.
So atleast do this. Look up the Shores foreclusure document and read the Kosage declaration. Then respond.
John,
#1 When people say that they are retired, it means that they are retired from a full time job. They still work the business! So when Kosage said he is retired at 23, that is true.
#2 As far as Shores go, do you know the extenuating circumstances? I didn’t look it up, but sometimes there are legitimate reasons things like that happens. I guess for me, I’m willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.
3. Quixtar and Amway are separate companies so legally they are different companies. I was always taught to just explain the history so people would understand that.
4. Have you ever heard of what “core” is? I believe one of the steps is to retail.
5. If you don’t find a value in the cd’s, functions, etc. Then why don’t you just stop them? Nobody forces you to keep going to functions or listening to cd’s.
I find that they are very valuable and have helped me with my business. They are also very reasonably priced, have you ever checked out a Robert Kiyosaki seminar? Have you checked out the prices for self-improvement cd’s from Nightingale Conant? They are a well respected self-improvement company and their average price per cd is $11.
6. Life happens, sometimes things don’t work out the way you want them too. I believe Quixtar hasn’t really grown much in the last 7 years so there will be some fallout. Nobody is immune too that. Common sense tells me that no business, or people are perfect.
7. I have not become financially free yet, and the reason is I haven’t been willing to put in the effort to get to that level. It’s not the fault of Quixtar/Amway Global or the “system”, every IBO needs to look at themselves first and honestly ask if they’ve really put in the effort needed to make this business work.
I’ve been satisfied so far with a very good part-time income that I generate from a part-time effort from this business. I am also very excited about the changes coming about with competitive, retailable products, national advertising, bigger bonuses, free shipping, YMCA partnerships, etc.
If you don’t find those things exciting, then perhaps you should find something else?
Visioneer,
Do you honestly think that being a diamond in WWDB isn’t a “full” time job? Have you checked out ther speaking schedules; the time they spend preparing their “Financial Freedom” speeches, the travel to the function locations, the nights in motels or staying at the homes of loyal platinums? In Kosage’s case, documents reveal he was gone from his home virtually every weekend & the weekends he was at home, he was out showing the plan on Friday and Saturday nights. And he was supposedly a “retired” emerald. If a WWDB diamond was to quit performing his endless function speeches, making his incessant motivation CDs and quit putting in hours on end, his business would lose diamond status in lightning speed. In other words, they all have full time jobs.
As far as Shores and the benefit of the doubt, I certainly agree he deserves the benefit of the doubt. However, when he stands on stage (after being foreclosed on) & brags about his luxurious lifestyle and income and how his buisness is exploding - then one must ask, “Where is the accountability?”
These guys are deceptive. When have you ever heard a diamond stand on stage and admit the 96% dropout rate? They call that a “business secret”. Why not tell the single moms and college kids the truth - that based on all the statistics from Quixtar itself, for every 10 you get in your downline, 9 will drop out within a handful of years? Why not tell the truth that the entire IBOAI voted no confidence in Quixtars decision to change its name back to Amway. Instead, they act like they are so excited about the transformation. After years of involvement in the business, I wonder how much better one’s life could be if the truth had been told. And yes I could move on & not share my thoughts on this blog. But you could also move on with building your business and not spending time replying. My life was radically, negatively and tragically changed because of the lies and deception of WWDB. And if my sharing can help one person not go through the same situation, then my time has been well spent.
John,
You certainly have your right to post what you want as I have mine.
My life has been radically changed for the better because of my LOA. I have never felt better about my future because of my involvement in this business. My wife was able to drop from a full-time job to a part-time one just recently, and I believe she’ll be able to quit completely if she desires within the next year as we are caring for an aging parent.
We have 10’s of thousands of dollars in savings and much more in investments because of the teaching of the “system”. If we both lost our jobs tomorrow, we’d be able to live on our savings and Amway Global income for years without changing our lifestyle.
We also give away more money than we ever did before this business to help ministries that we believe in.
The values I’ve learned through our system of delayed gratification, staying out of debt, working towards a goal and a dream, becoming a better husband, friend, family member, upline, downline, being a servant leader, have been of immeasurable help to me.
I also know a Diamond personally, and the time he spends on his business is certainly much less than a full-time job. Yes, he is working his business, but as IBOFB said, the reason to go Diamond is being able to control your own schedule and not let someone else dictate it.
In Dean’s case he was an Emerald going Diamond, I certainly expect someone going Diamond to be very busy. Have you ever heard the teaching that to go Diamond, you’re going to be spending 5-7 nights a week to do it? I have heard that since I got started.
As for your 90% drop out rate, I have not seen that in my downline. I have many downline that have been with this business for years. Quixtar says that the renewal rate for people who make over $1000/year is 90%. If they make less than that, the renewal rate drops to 37%. Consequently, we are working to make things the best ever for a new IBO and helping them become profitable as soon as possible.
My life has been radically changed for the better because of my involvement in this business. If I can help one person see that, then my time will have been well spent.
John just has thought process problems or questions. They are valid questions to him.
Most people, in my opinion, can retire from their jobs at emerald (if done properly). That doesn’t mean they are not working. Emerald seems unstable to me as far as the residual income goes (unless those 3 legs are 100 deep). So that being said, you will have to work hard to get to Diamond. It may take 4-7 nights a week. It may require you be on a speaking rotation. It may require you to be away from home on weekends. The question is, so what? I would think that even a Diamond can appreciate saving a buck or two, at least I hope I can when I get there.
Kosage was willing to do that. It may seem radical to you, but what are his results today? Pretty impressive. I don’t know Shores, but what are his results today? My guess is, because you are complaining about him, that he is doing very well. Probably has a bigger home than the one that was foreclosed upon.
By the way, you have no idea why his house was being foreclosed. Or at least you give nothing to prove that fact. Maybe he had some falling out of his business, it doesn’t disqualify him as someone who can not teach financial responsibility.
If you want an example, go to any college that teaches business. It is run by professors making 40-70k per year trying to teach you how to make 150k per year. If they knew how to do it, they wouldn’t be teaching there (yes there are few rare exceptions). They base everything on theory or what might work. While people in this business, regardless of LOA/LOS, teach from experience and what has worked.
How do you succeed? By doing whatever it takes, not giving it your best.
John,
My comments were not intended to “contradict” any of your statements, but instead, to share some thoughts from a vantage point of someone who is successful in this industry. If nothing else, hopefully my comments will offset any of your unfortunate experiences and bitter views.
I think it is very poor taste to bring up specific names and private/personal details about circumstances of someones life in a public format such as this. Just because you have access to legal documents, doesn’t give you the right to gossip about people, especially when void of ALL the details and taking things out of context.
What this world really needs, it a lot more visioneers and a lot less Johns!
People that are failures tend to look in the past and are always blaming someone or something for where they are at. The victim mentality. People that are successful tend to keep their eyes on the future, and take full reponsibilty for themselves. Even when life throws difficult circumstances at them that are out of their control.
TWS,
Now that you have decided what is best for the world (more Visioneers and less Johns) and now that you have decided that people who are failures tend to look to the past & blame others. Now that you have you have chosen to tell me that I am somehow gossiping, I will try to make this simple for you, your honor.
“Retired” means you don’t have to work any more. Check Websters and any other common understanding of the word. Kosage has claimed he has been “retired” since age 23. Fact - not true. He has been working since he was 23 and he is still working. And if he quits working, his business will dry up. Also, accessing legal documents that are public and available and then simply sharing what they say is not gossip.
Next, Shores foreclosure is public knowledge. It is recorded with the county clerk. Fact, the reason he was foreclosed is that he didn’t make his mortgage payments. Deceit is when he stood on stage at FED & talked about how his business was growing & how this business was making all of his dreams come true. Was being foreclosed on a dream for him?.
I notice your name links to the IBOAI website. Why am I not surprised? I am glad you hare doing well in your business. However, I am not sure where you have garnered authority to judge who the failures are. But with your IBOAI link, I think I can understand your position.
John,
FYI, a word can have different meanings depending on the context in which it is said. For example, Diamond Direct used to be the term that we now call a Diamond. If you look up “direct” in the dictionary, it has a different meaning from how we used it in the business. Direct in the business meant you had achieved a certain level that’s now called a Platinum.
It’s hard to believe you never realized what “retired” meant in the context of how it was spoken. It’s also hard to believe you never heard of the core steps and how “retail” is a step in there.
You’re right that these are public records, but the fact that you took the time to look them up just reveals your character.
I hope you haven’t done anything in your lifetime that people can look up on public records and try to discredit you.
I’ve said this to other negative/destructive critics and I’ll say it to you. I feel sorry for you. Why? Because you continue to let anger, bitterness, and possibly envy continue to control you.
I hope and pray that somehow you can get past what happened to you.
Visioneer,
First you judge that the world is better off with less people like me. Second, you have decided that you know the definition of a failure. And now you feel sorry for me are going to pray for me. Interesting. And how have you come to the conclusion that I am angry or bitter? Do you have a degree that grants you the authority to diagnose someone by reading a few blog comments?
The reason this is interesting is because for years (and I am sure you know it), the internet was the “bathroom walls of society” and downline IBOs shouldn’t look at the negative on the internet. Your very presence here surprises me. Shouldn’t you be out showing the plan; focusing on the positive and building your business? Why are you so defensive when facts are pointed out?
I do appreciate your prayers & I hope you are genuine in offering them. But instead of praying for my supposed bitterness and anger, would you be willling to pray that the truth come out? The truth about the massive tools income of the diamonds that rakes in infinitely more money that Quixtar or Amway ever did for these guys? So thanks for the prayers, but I invite you to join me in praying for the truth to come out. In the end, it is the truth that sets us free. And I am free indeed.
IBOfightback,
I just want to thank you sincerely for allowing opposing thoughts and ideas on your site. You have earned my respect.
We have nothing to lose from the real truth being exposed. It’s so unfortunate that so many folk, like yourself, believe that what may be true for a minority of folk, or true in the past, is a current truth for the majority of folk now.
The majority of Diamonds do not rake in “infinitely more money” from tools than A/Q.
Oj, and in this context “retired” does not mean “not working”. Do you consider a pensioner who has “retired” from his job to not really be retired because he goes and “works” in his garden? Or volunteers at the local club?
It is more than possible to stop working an Amway business and have it continue to generate income. Plenty of folk have done it. Would Kosage have continued to earn an income if he’d stopped working with amway as a Founders Emerald? Almost certainly. For how long, who knows? There’s emeralds that are dead whose estates still earn income from their Amway businesses.
Clearly he wanted to move on to bigger things. That doesn’t make his claim of being “retired” from his job to be untrue.
John,
First of all, I never said the world was better with less people like you. Secondly, I never judged you as a failure.
I am here, because as I said earlier, if I can help one person see that this business can sincerely help them then my time will have been worth it.
I was sincere in my prayers for you and I do wish you the best.
Finally, I am showing the plan and making a difference that way also.
Visioneer,
I do appreciate your prayers & I commit that you have mine. You are correct, it was TWS who said the world needed less people like me in the world. I see that triple diamond Greg Duncan now has 4 properties in preforeclosure. This is not gossip. I am wondering if it is because he can’t afford his payments. Or has he decided he has made bad investments & will just leave the bank holding the bag? Either way, here we go again. Another kingpin having his property foreclosed on and he will be leading the thousands of downline in speeches about financial responsibility, freedom and integrity. I remember constantly being taught to pay cash. So what do you think? Can he not afford his mortgage payments (financially free?) or is he just going to let bank bite the bullet for his not so good investment? Anyone else have any thoughts?
I think he’s full of it, and he was writing checks to impress his downline that his bank account couldn’t cash.
Typical Amway “leader”
No deception there at all.
Go ahead and follow him, ABO’s. At least my mortgage payments are up to date.
How many of the tens of thousands of Emerald’s and above have you met Rocket? Must be an awful lot of them for you to be able to make judgements about what is typical …
Tens of thousands of Emeralds? Okee Dokee. You carry on with that conversation by yourself, because I don’t know what YOU’RE talking about.
As usual, the distortion of facts starts immediately.
We’re talking about triple diamonds who have spoken to others about financial responsibility.
How many people have you met that have been seriously wounded financially directly because of their involvement in Amway/Quixtar?
Must be alot of them for you to infer they are ignorant uneducated fools who don’t understand quality and value.
You claimed that “writing checks to impress his downline that his bank account couldn’t cash” is typical behaviour for an Amway leader. I could have taken it back to Platinum for “leaders” if you like, either way you claim it is “typical”. How do you know it’s typical?
Nice straw man, I never made any such inference abouct “ignorant uneducated fools”. Are you so lacking in points of substance you have to make stuff up?
Any time someone makes a (well deserved) crack about the prices, you infer that they lack intelligence.
It’s pretty obvious to even the most innocent of bystanders that I was referring to Greg Duncan. However, I will admit I painted Amway “leaders” with the same broad stroke.
But it is quite consistent with my personal experience.
Hardly a “straw man” comment. Many people besides myself have had the same experience.
Otherwise, the alleged change which is apparently in progress would not even have begun.
I don’t like coffee. I don’t like beer.
Clearly, any business trying to sell coffee or beer is a waste of effort and a scam.
That pretty much sums up your logic. I’ll leave others to decide what it says about your intelligent.
As for “Hardly a “straw man” comment. Many people besides myself have had the same experience.”
Do you know what a “straw man” is? Apparently not. It’s when you make up an accusation and then argue against. You made up the accusation that I claim people are ignorant, uneducated fools because they don’t understand the quality and value of the products.
It doesn’t matter how many others have “had the same experience” - whatever that means - you made it up.
I will however fully admit that your posts are making YOU look like an ignorant, uneducated fool.
From the heart:
1) It was stated that Greg Duncan, “…has been proclaiming from stage for years and years that Amway/Quixtar has the “best distribution and is the best business model in the world”.
Hmmm….. just for complete fairness, what else has he said in the next breath? It is simply this, and I paraphrase, but very close to a direct quote: ‘I’m not married to Q/A. If someone can show me a better system with better products that we can all take advantage of, show me, and I’ll do that!’ You can ask Randy Sears, Dean Kosage, Brad Duncan, and others. They have all made very similar statements in large, open, public meetings. A key point Greg always makes: it has to be the same opportunity for all. Can you show him one that offers a better opportunity to you and me?
2) “How many cases of Allinenergy drink do you think Duncan would like to sell? …That is tens of thousands of cases of energy drink that he will be promoting, advertising and pitching for that will never make a penny for any of the thousands of downline under him.
I ask you, who cares that I do not make $$ from Greg selling AllinEnergy? I don’t care. It has not had any effect on my sales of XS!
And personally, Greg’s passion is not Quixtar; nor his downline, as was stated. Also, his passion is not money. Greg’s passion is to provide the best security and opportunities he can for his family while setting an awesome example for others. Have you ever attended a rally for any organization? Not Amway or Quixtar – some other entity. Did they offer you an opportunity to attend a seminar for three days for $125? Yeah, you read right - $125. Yes, you find your own transportation & room, but the charge to attend the function is $125.
So what if he does make $$? Isn’t that one of the goals of owning your own business? And, BTW, as stated elsewhere in this thread, Greg does not host a family reunion anymore, so he is obviously not making $$ on that venue. Thanks, Bridgett, Aug 11th, 2008 at 8:21 am. BTW, I was at Greg’s last family reunion and am looking fwd to the day when he will have his next one!
John made a very accurate observation, “Duncan never thinks small.” That is very true, and if those people detracting him took half as much time getting to know him, they would realize that his big vision has provided and is still providing the fuel for many, many people to have a better life, including yours truly.
3) It was stated, “As far as Duncan goes, he is taking money out of all of his downline’s pockets through, CDs, tapes, Kate, Premier membership, functions….”
Let me get this right. Do you make the same claim about a music CD you bought that profits the performer? How about any other educational CDs or tapes? Have you ever looked into the cost of a business communication system as comprehensive as Kate? Can you compare Premier membership to anything else in the business world? What is the value in an item you purchase or a function you attend? I would say it depends on the degree to which you are willing to apply the information / tools provided.
“We were told that being on the system would lead to financial freedom in 2-5 years. Tell me, have you become financially free within 2-5 years, and if not, why not?”
Do you know Shane & Rachelle O’Reilly? 6 mo. from “$0” (zero) to Platinum. 12 mo. from Platinum to qualified Diamond. Hmmm…. I did the math – that’s only a year-and-a-half. Ooops, I better go tell the leadership at WWDB that their system doesn’t work. The system works if you work it. Does it work for everyone? You tell me. Are you willing to make the effort (spelled sacrifices) to achieve the level of success you want? Not just in this opportunity, but in any opportunity. Well, obviously, the O’Reilly’s did. (Please do not flame me to let me know that they are no longer diamonds. Shane is my personal sponsor & mentor, and I know a fair deal about why and what. They will be back on stage soon!)
4) “…many of the critics will think or may say is this: Why would Greg Duncan throw his team, and potential income for them and/or Quixtar IBOs as whole, under the bus.”
I feel the answer is so simple that most people can see it. And, it was addressed in another spot in this post. Simply put: XS is marketed ONLY through Quixtar/Amway distributors. AllinEnergy is marketed OTC. Not everyone shops Q/A, just like not everyone shops at Safeway or Loews. This just means that Greg has enough marketing sense to take opportunity of multiple venues. It does not affect me adversely at all. My sales of XS have not slowed because of this anymore than they slow when some other new energy drink hits the market.
5) Credit where credit is due!
TWS, Aug 15th, 2008 at 3:40 pm,
“I have to WORK to become a better husband. I have to WORK to become a better dad. I have to work to become a better….. In order to be successful and prosperous, you have to work at it for the rest of your life!”
Amen brother!!! Life does take work.
6) I know there is at least one very successful Q/A distributor in this post, the one who knows a diamond personally.
Final words for now:
For those of you who do not have or have not had the opportunity to listen to or meet Greg & Laurie Duncan, you will be pleased and delighted when you do. They are the real deal. They are sincere. They do care about their downline. They do want us all to succeed. They DO put their money, their time, their sweat into the lives of the people they serve. How do I know? Because of this, and many, many instances like this: I have been invited to participate, at no cost to me, in another conference call with Greg and members of the O’Reilly team. It does not cost me anything; rather it enriches me for being able to participate.
IBOFree,
Next time you are in a meeting with Greg, will you ask him why his 4 properties in Montana are in preforeclosure? Is it because he can’t afford to make his payment? Hard to accept as he has proclaimed financial freedom and multi millionaire status for years. Or is because he just doesn’t want to pay so he will let the bank bite the bullet? Hard to accept as he is the one who has taught all of us the importance of financial integrity and responsibility. Also, do you have any idea why Mr. O’Reilly isn’t on the WWDB site in the “success stories”? Of course neither is Gilmour or Alcott. It seems like their lifetime residual financial freedom would keep them on the success page.
As for all the discussion on the Amway leaders. They are just people. Like you and me they make money the same way we do. HARD WORK, and as for what the leaders or ibo’s do with their time or money should be no reflection on the business itself. It is what it is. You mold the business to fit your needs as you would for any traditional business or J.O.B. I am no I.B.O myself but i can clearly see the people who trully put effort in this business find a way to make it work for them. I know many of my friends who are involved with Amway and make better money than i could with what im currently doing
You all keep chasing your dream! If it be with Quixtar or not dont let anyone allow you too lose determination on what your heart is set on with their actions or words. once again, you mold what you work with to fit your needs. Chase the dream!
John,
I am not sure how to answer your questions. I admitted before that I have no knowledge of why anyone’s property might be in pre-foreclosure. Are you an expert in Real Estate Law? Do you know the ins & outs of how & why certain tools & laws are used in real estate? Do you own multiple properties in different states? You write as though pre-foreclosure and success can not co-exist with one person. I readily admit that I do not know the in or outs of Real Estate Law, or how to work profitably within the system. With my ignorance comes the peace that I do not have to comment on why or why not someone else may or may not be involved in pre-foreclosure.
Yes, I do know why the O’Reilly’s do not appear in Success Stories. As I mentioned yesterday, they are not currently diamonds, which are the only ones depicted there. As to why the Gilmours & Alcotts do not appear in the Success Stories section on the WWDB Web site I have no idea.
Why does it matter? My business continues to grow & prosper without the Success Stories. As Landon has so well stated, “They are just people.” And, like people everywhere, they make mistakes, they have challenges in life, they make decisions. Some succeed greatly, come barely succeed.
I do not know if you were around when President Nixon resigned rather than face impeachment. If you were, did you decide to renounce your American citizenship, (I am assuming you are an American), because he lied to us? Or, did you decide to move on with your life? If you were an adult at that time, and you are still with us now, I can see that you made the decision to move on, without renouncing your American citizenship.
John, many of us have answered you as honestly & politely as we can, yet you still are hammering on the character of people in the name of informing others so they will not have experiences similar to yours. While this sounds noble on the surface, it sounds to me like you are trying to get “even” with those you say have wronged you. Instead of berating them here, may I suggest you write to them directly. You can write to any of the WWDB diamonds at:
(name of diamond)
c/o World Wide Group
717 S Pines RD
Spokane, WA 99216
US
Having taken advantage of writing to my former upline in a former LOS, I know this works. Try it – you might find a refreshing response. I do ask you to keep an open mind to the response. Otherwise you may miss the opportunity to learn the truth you say you are seeking. And, guess what? It might take more than one letter or conversation to get the facts you say you are looking for. Keep trying, being as sincere in your letters as you have been here and I believe your efforts will be rewarded with truth.
Landon – thanks for the encouragement! I am moving forward with my business and chasing my dreams! And, I am attempting to bring along as many others as want to make the effort with help to take that journey!
John,
Gossip as defined by Websters:
1. a person who habitually reveals personal or sensational facts and information about others 2. rumor or report of an intimate nature
I’ll restate myself. I think it is very poor taste to bring up specific names and private/personal details about circumstances of someones life in a public format such as this. Just because you have access to legal documents, doesn’t give you the right to gossip about people, especially when void of ALL the details and taking things out of context.
John said:
“I read your blog almost daily. This is one of the very few times I have commented. Your silly “defensive reply” shows me why you can’t have a constructive conversation about the issues.”
I would love to have a constructive conversation about the issues, but someone (John) hijacked this entire thread. Just remember, you started it. List the issues that you wish to discuss. Or, post them on http://www.amwaytalk.com and I’m sure they’ll be addressed.
IBO Free!
Thanks for the comments. Would love to see you contribute at the http://www.amwaytalk.com forum as well. I think its important to have both sides represented online. Unfortunately, a few critics have voiced their opinions much louder than IBOs until recently.
TWS,
“John has hijacked this entire thread” You don’t have to respond to me. You are under no obligation to read my comments. If you don’t want to read them, then don’t. Show me what I have said that can’t be verified. If the definition of gossip is, “someone who says “personal and sensational facts about others”, then what is it when platinums and IBOs continually talk about the sensational lifestyles lived by the diamonds who “always pay cash”. They show young college kids and single moms pictures of the “profiles of success” showing how the diamonds live in mansions and drive hummers. Here is the problem. Repeated examples show that the diamonds don’t pay cash. The have mortgages and debts that they can’t pay or aren’t willing to pay. Shores was forecloses on. Duncan has properties in foreclosure.
When Kosage was an emerald, he was bragging about being retired and financially free. So the young 20 year olds wanted to be like him (retired at 23 and financially free). So they bought into his WWDB system of functions, CDs and Kate and more functions. Problem is, Kosage wasn’t retired and he wasn’t financially free. He was working virtually every night (according to his own declaration). So the kids were deceived. My point is this. If he would have been honest, they wouldn’t have spent their money on on the supposed proven system of success. The whole WWDB system is built on this kind of dishonesty and exaggeration. I remember Puryear saying that Quixtar was going to be a $100 billion business. His prediction only missed by 99%. It is all smoke and mirrors and way too many people are being hurt. All I am doing is sharing my thoughts. Just like each of you can share yours. I am not interested in having my mind controlled like when no one is aloud to pass negative downline. So know for sure there is nothing personal from my end. I admire you and everyone else who is willing to share. But the truth is that I have not “hijacked” anything. If you don’t want to read my comments, you don’t have to. That is true freedom and you have it. However, I do appreciate the dialogue.
Problem is, Kosage wasn’t retired and he wasn’t financially free. He was working virtually every night (according to his own declaration). So the kids were deceived.
No John, it’s you who is being deceitful here. Was Kosage working every night to maintain his lifestyle as an Emerald or was he working every night to achieve new goals?
He is now an Executive Diamond. The evidence clearly indicates he was working to achieve new goals, not maintain what he had.
IBOfightback,
In my response to TWS, I didn’t say he was working to maintain his current lifestyle. Read my post again. I said according to his declaration, he was working virtually every night. But on stage he was proclaiming he was retired. So who was being deceitful? Kosage was. (In public, I tell everyone I am retired. In private legal documents, I admit I am working constantly.
Maybe you shouldn’t change the words of other people’s posts and then accuse them of being deceitful. It might take away your credibility.
So, John, by your reckoning, a 65yr old who has left his job, has a good pension and never has to work again, but volunteers as a coach at his local football club 6 days a week - he’s a liar if he says he is retired?
John,
The point is that Kosage no longer needed to do anything in order to continue to earn an Emerald income.
Being married myself, with two small children, and putting myself in Kosage’s shoes–having marital trouble with a toddler and in the public eye in a people business–and seeing how far he’s come (not just in terms of the income he’s earned, but the person/father/ex-husband he’s become)I’d have to say that there are many things that Kosage can teach “college kids and single moms” and is an asset to WWDB.
John,
Without knowing a person’s entire financial situation (assets, responsibilites, goals, temperments), I find it interesting that you would draw such conclusions to the motives of a person.
As an example, I’ve heard the entire spectrum from Diamonds and Emeralds regarding housing:
-rent
-buy with a small down payment and a large mortgage
-buy with a big down payment and a small mortgage
-buy with cash and no mortgage.
You’ve got dozens of people with dozens of different curcumstances. To take what a few Emeralds/Diamonds say and then apply it ALL Diamonds as “proof” some Diamonds are lying (because they don’t do the same with their money)is really ridiculous.
John,
Your definition of “retired” is absolutely correct!
He was and is retired from his job. He no longer WORKS there. Therefore he is also correct with stating from stage, “I retired from my job”. He did!
Now if he said he retired from his job, but still worked at Red Robin, then you would be correct in saying he was being deceitful.
If anyone is spinning or taking words out of context it is you.
One other thing, you mention you were wronged by the business and others like you have been wronged. I can agree that is how you feel and perhaps others as well (whether it is true or not is a matter of opinion). Have you done any research or sought out people who have a differing opinion than yourself? How has this business changed people’s lives for the better? In what ways did they do the business different than you?
Just know that for every person that has an experience such as yours (whether real or perceived) there are just as many people that have the opposite experience (whether real or perceived).
Truly, I wish you the best, and also appreciate that you post here. Arguing to or fro aside, it is great that IBOFB allows opposing viewpoints and can have relatively rational conversation regarding those viewpoints. Which is why I rarely look at other sites.
I disagree TB2IBO. It seems to me John is using a somewhat different definition of retired. He appears to be using the “lying on the sofa waiting to die” definition .. that if you’re still active doing things, then you’re not retired. An “absolute” position - rather than retired from something, which is almost certainly the context Kosage was using it in.
Both are legitimate uses of the word, problems only arise when someone uses it one way, and someone else insists on interpreting it another way.
Back to the original post: All-In vs. XS Energy. Here is a comment from the IBOAI board and a quote from Greg Duncan. Hopefully this will clarify some things.
http://www.iboaiblog.com/my_weblog/2008/08/rumor-about-gre.html
To All My New Friends,
I left my job working at McDonalds when I was 17. Therefore I am retired. Give me a break. He quit his job to go to work full time (just about every day of the week for the next 20 years) building his A/Q business. Leaving one job to work endless hours for the next 20 years is not retired. It is simply leaving one full time job to take another very full time job. At the time he was claiming he was retired, he was working endless hours. When he was claiming he was retired, he didn’t own a home, leased his cars, and had a total of about $5,000 in retirement savings. If that is your definition of retired, then 95% of Americans are retired and financially free.
Wow, do you really have such a limited understanding of the difference between trading hours for dollars and working to build an asset and future income?
Was Kosage working because he had to, for his Emerald income, or was he working out of choice because he wanted to build a bigger business?
Evidence of the former - none.
Evidence of the latter - he’s now an Executive Diamond
Mind you, I’m just assuming you’re even correctly quoting Kosage. Past experience tells me folk often seem to have extremely selective memories of these things.
John,
It’s 2008.
Rather than talk about stuff from over a decade ago can we talk about right now?
You pick probably the worst time in the guy’s life to spotlight.
Gee wiz.
Says it all really. The “worst” John can come up with is a 10 yr old dispute over what one emerald (now Executive Diamond) meant when he said “retired”?
gee wiz indeed.
As I wrote earlier, I think so many of these critcs are still driven by anger, bitterness, and envy. It shows through in their words and actions.
I hope they can see the truth to that.
WOW!
We are actually discussing something worthy of our attention - the debate concerning Greg Duncan & AllinEnergy vs. XS!
OK, I just read the Amthrax article. Hmmmm…. let me see if I can make sense of what was stated.
XS & AllinEnergy are competitors? I agree. My customers who purchase XS from me can also purchase Red Bull, Amp, AllinEnergy, or any other “energy” drink they desire. All of the drinks in the “energy” category are competitors. So what? What is the problem?
Now, to make the situation a little more clear, it seems that the “trouble” is that Greg is a Q/A IBO. As I stated above & yesterday, what possible difference can that make? XS is only marketed thru IBOs, while AllinEnergy is marketed OTC. Who cares? It is like complaining about an IBO who sells SA8 owning stock in Proctor & Gamble, which makes Tide laundry detergent. What “IS” the problem?
Now, as far as Greg or any other IBO marketing CDs, functions, products that make them a profit - what is the problem? Have you ever attended a Zig Ziglar, Peter Lowe, John Maxwell, or Brian Tracy seminar? I have. It is hard to compare the price of those seminars & the price of their CDs, books & other materials to the prices that are charged at WWDB – Q/A functions. There simply is no comparison. The outside functions & materials cost more – plenty more. Do they have value? Of course they do. When Zig speaks and I buy one of his CDs or books does he make a profit? Of course! He is a businessman. Do those seminars, books, CDs & other materials help me to improve my life? Yes, when I apply the information presented. I have material from all of these men in my home, and they have all helped me. I also have many CDs from my Q/A biz that have helped me immensely to improve as a person. If Greg or Dean or Rod or Ron or any other diamond makes $ on that, so be it. The value I have received from that material is many times what I have paid for it.
One thing that has always continued to attract me to Q/A is that “ANYONE” can participate & make $ in this biz. Not only that, but whenever I ask for help, I receive it. And guess what? Neither Shane nor Greg has ever charged me for their help. Can you say the same about your place of employment? I cannot. Not only is the playing field not level, but the shape of the organization is definitely many at the bottom, graduating to one at the top - yep, a pyramid! I may live to be 100, but my chance of becoming CEO of this corp. is less than 1%. (Not that I am trying mind you, I’ve got a better deal going on the outside!) So, if Greg has a product in the same genre and markets it independently of Q/A, I say Go for it! He is still helping thousands of people to grow independent Q/A businesses and providing them a way to improve their life if they desire to.
I applaud Greg and others who spend their time & money freely on others, whose contributions to organizations like Goad International and others make a huge difference in relief efforts around the world. I hope that my life will be as positive an example to my family, friends, neighbors, coworkers & others as Greg’s life has.
Hey, all you other IBOs here - have you heard what Greg & his team have done with XS now? The secret isn’t out yet, but you can watch this site for XSciting news!
https://app.e2ma.net/app/view:CampaignPublic/id:10421.1272507714/rid:c3ca82a5e7d569008d31c71f9b9a7321
I don’t care one way or the other what Greg does so long as it doesn’t hurt people in the business. I know many highly successfull people outside of “the business” who have made a ton of coin. Most of them, while on the way up or once they’ve had some significant success, diversify. They look for trends to capitalize on and invest some of their bank on larger projects. I’d say starting a beverage company/beverage line would qualify. No one talks much about how over the years many of the large pins have gone into developing real estate… or maybe no one knew…
As far as tapes/CD’s/Functions/etc… I don’t care if they make money on them so long as it benefits the IBO. My longstanding opinion has been if the money is so good in the sale of tools, quit bitching about it and go platinum and beyond and take part in the profits. That’s why people go into business…. to make a profit.
Thanks for all the interesting tidbits, ibofightback, good stuff!
Just a quick follow up… My bigger objection would be the family oriented focus of WWDB/WWG and the image Greg is sending to families and young people. When you stand on stage and publicly address that you are a born-again Christian and talk about family values, then go out and promote an energy drink through the poker world…. Alot of families have been hurt by gambling addictions, not to mentions the bible specifically talks about not gambling and games of chance. I don’t doubt Greg’s savvy or entreprenurial spirit, I just think he’s wandering down a quagmire of a trail that may leave his downline scratching their heads. Noticeably absent from the ownership group are any of his family members, including Brad.
It is sad to see how bitter some people are over there experiences and how much they want to make arguments to convince others why they will fail too. I had my share of bad experiences when i was in the army; didn’t get into jobs/units i wanted to and could have made legitimate excuses that it had a lot to do with bias on the instuctors/evaluators and information being selectively given. However, i accepted that i did not pass for a reason and was not bitter when others did. I always encouraged others who wanted to try similar things stating experiences of the people who SUCCEEDED as people they should talk to. At least be honest enough with people to refer them to someone else if you know that you wont be of help to them. If you can’t be honest with yourself….. well, life’s going to be hard and you’re going to be bitter about many things on your death bed, which is no way to live.