Amway Australia update – and names

The IBOAI blog has recently posted an article about some “rumours” circulating with regards Amway Australia and some Amway Australia Diamonds, “rumours” I kickstarted a couple of weeks ago and will address further at the end of this post. The IBOAI post points out that Amway Australia business owners are free to be in as many MLMs as they like – a Quixtar-like no-compete does not exist. (That information should send our friends from Team into a frenzy!). The relevant rule is 3.19, which states /

3.19 An IBO shall at no time:
(a) during authorisation as an AMWAY IBO; or
(b) for a period of six (6) months after ceasing to be so authorised:
3.19.1 supply or sell to other AMWAY IBOs, or persons who have applied to become AMWAY IBOs, or persons whom the IBO or other AMWAY IBOs (to the knowledge of the IBO) have approached with a view to applying to become AMWAY IBOs;
3.19.2 induce other AMWAY IBOs, or any such prospective AMWAY IBOs, to supply or sell or acquire;
3.19.3 be directly or indirectly engaged or interested in, or permit or allow any servants or agents to be engaged or interested in, the supply or sale or the promotion of the supply or sale to other AMWAY IBOs or such prospective IBOs of; products or services which are sold or supplied by or through another multi-level marketing company or business.
The restrictions imposed by this Rule are separate, distinct, independent and severable, and in the event that any one or more of them is wholly or in part invalid, then the remaining restriction or restrictions shall nevertheless be valid and effective.

So you’re free to operate a competing business, just not to solicit existing IBOs or immediate prospects for it.

The IBOAI also points out however, that it makes little sense to invite folk who are also operating competing businesses along on discretionary “free trips” where Amway Australia’s future strategies are discussed. Amway Australia Rules of Conduct clearly state –

2.26 Attendance at New Platinum IBO Forums, IBO Leadership Meetings, Leadership Seminars, Diamond Meetings and Forums, Founders Invitational and other AMWAY recognition events is by invitation only which may be issued or withheld in AMWAY’s absolute discretion.

The IBOAI then addresses the question of Q-12 and QBI-like bonuses and Accreditation. In Amway North America these are discretionary bonuses and to receive them after September 28, an IBO must be individually accredited or belong to an accredited organisation. No such system exists in Australia.

Finally, the IBOAI post refers to the newly opened Amway Australia Business Centres. These are “bricks and mortar” Amway locations and have been used with some success in Asia. This Amway Australia Business Centres video on Amway Watch gives a great overview. I think they’re an excellent innovation.

Now, to the rumours. As I reported a week or so ago, (some?) participants in Amway Australia and New Zealand’s Emerald Plus trip were apparently asked to sign a statutory declaration with regards their or their families participation in other multi-level marketing companies. As explained above it simply makes no sense for Amway to invite people also working with competitors on these trips. Several Diamonds reportedly refused to sign the declarations. When I first was told about this I was given three names. Since then, and before I published anything about this, an IBO from outside Australia informed me that a MonaVie Black Diamond had told them that two Amway Australia Diamonds had joined Mona Vie after being presented with the statutory declarations. A third source confirmed two of the names, that their children were registered in Mona Vie, and that the children’s participation was essentially a front for the parents. Finally, a fourth independent source again confirmed one of the names involved, and that registration of children was being actively “taught” as a strategy to others in similar situation. If the latter is true, then it would appear to me that rule 3.19 is being broken.

Meanwhile, new Mona View recruit and former Quixtar Executive Diamond Orrin Woodward showed the true colours of his supposed integrity by directly taking a large portion of my original post about this and reposting them on his website, without any attribution or link to the source. Not only a clear violation of copyright law, Orrin, but pure and simply unethical. A commenter on Woodward’s site, claiming to have “close knowledge” of the situation, says that futher letters threatening termination based on violations of rule 3.19, have been received by the Diamonds in question.

(update: Woodward has since edited his posts in an extremely cynical and disappointing manner – more on this in a later post)

Probably the same anonymous poster continues in a further comment to rail against the supposed failures of Amway Australia, and Woodward highlights this in a new post. Some of the comments –

  • I predict that the Amway turnover in Australia – which has sunk to an all time low of about $120 million (a high of $290 million in 1993 – gee the Amway model has lost just a little bit of ground since 1992) – will now plummet to below $60million in the next 12 months
  • It has been a massive struggle for people to reach 21% in the past 8 years. Only those who focused on product sales have achieved anything. Of course these sales orientated groups have had a slide backwards – as their sales team grew tired.
  • No Diamonds from 24 (there were 6 of them) have requalified at Diamond since. There are some Diamonds (like Roland & Jenny McGready) who qualified back in 199 – that are no longer even qualified at the Saphire level.

and on and on ….

What’s interesting about this “insider” is how disingenuous, and downright wrong, some of his comments are. For example, he claims 1993 Amway Australia turnover was $290 milllion. It wasn’t – Amway Australia sales for 1993 were $148 million, a little more than half what the poster is claiming.

The next comment about it “being a struggle to reach 21%” is interesting. Amway Australia Because Magazine recognized 38 new Platinums in 2007. While the sales data clearly show Amway Australia, like Quixtar in North America, has been struggling to achieve growth, by population 38 new platinums is equivalent to around 640 new platinums in North America. The actual figure for Quixtar in 2007? 544. In other words, per capita Amway Australia is doing about 18% better than Quixtar. Given Quixtar’s poor recent performance this isn’t necessarily something to shout about, but clearly there are people in Australia building successful businesses, and according to the sales data, and contrary to Orrin Woodward’s anonymous commentator, that hasn’t changed all that much since 1993.

The poster also claims there were 6 new Diamonds in 2004. Unfortunately I haven’t been able to establish who they all were. However I do know that Amway Australia Network TwentyOne Diamonds Guy and Tania Wilson qualified Diamond in 2003 and may be included in that. The commentator is right, they haven’t requalified as Diamond – they’ve gone on to Executive Diamond. Graeme & Debbie Owen , who qualified Diamond in the 90s, have also gone on to Executive Diamond in 2006. Mitch & Deidre Sala, who qualified Triple Diamond and Crown in the late 90s, have gone on to Founders Crown Ambassador. Peter & Debbie Cox, who qualifed as Diamond in the early 90s, have gone on to Crown Ambassador. Gad & Melissa Ghabriel, who qualified Diamond in 1996, are now Founders Executive Diamond. What’s more, there are folk like Ingrid Peskops, who joined in 2002 (or thereabouts), went Platinum in 11 months, and qualifed as a Diamond in 2007, and Ronnie & Jane Kagan, who joined in 2000, spent several years inactive, then went Diamond in 18 months, qualifying in 2004.

All of these folks were doing this in the last decade in Australia. Yes, some of the higher award qualifications likely resulted from international legs, however they must be qualifying (and requalifying) at least at the Emerald level in Australia & NZ alone. Clearly there are Australian IBOs building and maintaining this business successfully in Australia. The anonymous poster claims they’re “sales oriented” groups, and Orrin Woodward goes on to imply they’re doing old style Avon-like selling and “door to door”.

Well, Orrin and friend, you’ve got it wrong. All those names I mentioned above are part of the organisation I work with, Network 21. While yes, we do actually spend some time focusing on getting people to know and buy the products (shock horror!) and even having customers as per Amway rules (oh my!), we are foremost a networking organisation. We build networks of network builders, and their customers and other consumers. Heck, Orrin, we even use a version of your “Team depth strategy” to do it.

So what does this all mean for the current Australian situation? Well, in an ongoing dispute between former Executive Diamond Trevor Chatham and Amway Australia (Amway Australia v ClifOne Pry Ltd), Chatham claims the following –

It is my experience that at least 80% of the Diamonds in my organisation are no longer qualifying at even the Emerald level. They are still being promoted to the IBO’s as Diamonds, but in fact only ever qualified at the Diamond level one time. I also believe this type of deliberate deception is occurring through out the Amway business.

and the 1990s compared to today –

IDA had about 30,000 attending FEC each year. Now it is down to about 4,000. A lot of IBO’s will remember what it was like when reminded.

Assuming the decline in IDA FEC (annual conference) reflects a decline in the size (and sales volume) of IDA as a whole, then this represents a nearly 90% decline in IDA! While Amway Australia sales have clearly been poor over the same time frame, they are nothing near a 90% decline.The only logical answer to the inconsistency I can think of is that while IDA has apparently been haemorraghing, other groups must have been growing. Clearly, as outlined with the qualifiers above, Network 21 Australia is probably one of those groups. IDA and Network 21 are operating there in the exact same market, with the exact same products, the exact same business opportunity, and the exact same economic circumstances. Logically, this implies any major “problems” are not with Amway per se in Australia, but with differences between the groups.

How does this all tie together to the original post? Well, the heads of IDA Australia are Tom & Caryn Avelsgaard.

Which names have been mentioned by all four of my sources as being at the centre of this dispute around the Emerald Plus tour and reportedly building Mona Vie? Tom & Caryn Avelsgaard.

I’m told that Trevor Chatham is also with Mona Vie, as are other former Diamond members of IDA, Peter & Lynne Maddison.

Perhaps IDA Australia’s Amway business has been imploding because some of their leadership, headed by the Avelsgaard’s, have been actively working with an Amway competitor, actively working against the thousands of Amway Australia IBOs in their downline.

With all respect to the honest, hard working leaders that may remain with IDA Australia, back when I started with Amway in Australia I was told to watch out for Idiots Doing Amway – IDA. Again and again, both online and offline, I would encounter reports of some of the less than professional approaches some (many?) IDA IBOs were using to build their Amway businesses, damaging the Amway reputation along the way.  Hopefully they are now IDMV, and the rest of IDA and Amway Australia can repair that reputation and move on to a bigger and better future.

Post a comment below or Discuss this post on Amway Talk

17 thoughts on “Amway Australia update – and names”

  1. I would like to say, I like your page I think it’s great.
    I think a higher transparency of these issues is needed, and more self-less ethical charity projects need to be championed by Amway and our LOS organizations, with opportunities for IBO’s to volunteer our time to the community.
    But in relation to your “back when I started with Amway in Australia I was told to watch out for Idiots Doing Amway – IDA. Again and again, both online and offline, I would encounter reports of some of the less than professional approaches some (many?) IDA IBOs were using to build their Amway businesses, damaging the Amway reputation along the way.” comment,
    I was told the same thing from an IDA perspective when I started and have heard stories of inappropriate actions by network 21 distributors having negative impacts. I’m just starting out, and I’m sure you made mistakes when you started. Singling out an organization in a post like this is wrong.

    We should be working together championing the Amway opportunity and MLM as a whole. Because spending 40 hours a week of your life just earning money is materialistic. Also helping the world by educating people on the truths of economic alchemy.
    Thanks

    1. Timothy, I apologised above for my tone on this post, one should never write when angry :). The leadership of IDA from that time has all either been tossed out by Amway or left. I’m very comfortable with those leading IDA today, I think they’re doing a great job and operating professionally.

  2. What safeguards have Amway in place for abuse? We got out of amway because of our abusive “upline” whose behaviour was distinctly “downclass”. Amway did nothing other than say they could backdate our complaint so we would not have to wait so long to get back in under someone else. Now our “upline” are being ‘downclass” because my wife has not been coming to all the functions because of illness in the last 6 months. What safeguards are in place for us to build this business from abusive “upline”??????

    1. I think you need to talk to Amway and/or talk further upline until you can find someone reasonable to deal with. If not, take on board Amway’s offer, find a team you can trust and connect with, and build with integrity.

  3. Just for the record, The Maddison’s had resigned from Amway for 2 years before they joined Mona•Vie, and had not been a part of IDA for 13 years.

    1. Just for the record the Maddison’s didn’t resign they were terminated due to very dodgy investment schemes they were trying to sell to their IBO’s.

      1. For the record, the Maddisons didn’t just try, they in fact managed to bilk a substantial amount of money from their idiot downlines. At least ALL the Malaysian IBOs who “invested” in the Maddison scam lost their shirts in it. This was the reason the Dreamchaser network collapsed. The company they set up to scam the IBOs was called Efkeros.

      2. Just for the record, only a month or two before the collapse of Dreamchaser, Peter Maddison ordered 10’s of 1000’s of CD’s that were duplicated by my company.

        To this day, they still haven’t been paid for … an invoice and court cost totalling $70K. I had to re-mortgage my house to stop from going bankrupt.

        As an IBO in his organisation, he regularly “preached” … “your word is your word & your word is your worth”. Month after month promises have been broken & no attempt to pay back the debts.

        I am apparently one of many who suffered heavily by the fall of the “Dreamchaser”.

        1. I am sorry for what happened to you Andrew but I watched Maddison operate at meetings and he came across as a supped up used cars flogger not someone who inspired confidence and trust.

          i am afraid your brain must have been in neutral when you allowed him to book up that deal.

    2. @ Dreamchaser: I know The Maddison’s personally and they did resign from Amway.

      @Simon Gaunt: You are incorrect. While they were involved in investments with people in their group, they were not dodgy. In fact some of those investments still operate today.

      @ Thirumalar Murugesan: While some people did lose some money in one of the investments, no-one lost as much as The Maddison’s. The company you mention had been set up to run their Amway business interests in New Zealand. The Maddison’s regret that people lost money in the investment.

      @Andrew Green: I asked The Maddison’s about this, and they told me that there was a business debt from CD reproduction that remained unpaid, that it was not as large as you state. They did tell me that there is another side to the story that they have, but offered no details, as they used to be one of the owners of the company that you say was yours.

      1. They were forced to resign, I watched it happen. Peter is very insecure when it comes to conflict, all he wanted was Yes men and when he didn’t get yes it all started to unravel……. !!!!!!

  4. I admit my “idiots doing amway” comment was uncalled for. It was out of frustration of constantly having to deal not only with BS from Amway critics, but also legitimate complaints from people who had legitimately bad experiences. Clearly, on the internet at least and for the Australian market, the majority of these came out of folk who had been involved with IDA. Was it possibly just one LOS or a limited group? I don’t know, but there are former IDA founders platinums and above attacking Amway, not based on Amway, but on their Amway experience with their upline – and not because they’d joined another MLM. At some stage people need to sit and reflect if perhaps there’s something in their approach that is causing people to come out of their exposure to Amway with a bad taste. My own brother (who was with IDA for several years) today refuses to even discuss the Amway business.

    Regarding the Avelsgaards, multiple sources have told me their son has been involved with MV for some time and has been actively recruiting Amway IBOs to join MV, with the knowledge of his parents, as have others in their Amway downline. Clearly that’s not an acceptable position for Amway and Amway IBOs.

    Finally with regards your comments about N21, you are waaayyy off base. We still use the “team depth” approach, though it has been undergoing modification and improvement ever since we first started with it – and will continue to be improved. As for a “severe decline” in numbers, whose propoganda are you believing? There were a significant number of new qualifiers on the Meditteranean cruise, and as you can see from amway.com.au this month we have a new Diamond, new Double Diamond, and new Founders Crown Ambassador.

    Finally, with regards to the shaving cream – you know what I think is naive and childish? Buying the shaving cream if you think it’s overpriced. An Amway business is a business, treat it like one. If your suppliers have a product you don’t think is good value, then simply don’t buy it and don’t market it. They’ll soon enough get the message.

  5. I think that a lot of the comments above are both niaeve and immature eg. “Idiots Doing Amway”.

    The Amway executives in Australia are constantly undermining the IBO’s and rather than treating them as independent business owners they are treating them as fools. The price rises that have occurred on Amway products in the last ten years have made it almost impossible for anyone to sell a product at retail.

    I recently heard 2 staff members who worked for Amway Australia, discuss with an Amway Diamond that they don’t buy the shaving cream as it is too expensive – yet they get a 21% discount.

    I know that it is normal that we back up and stick up for the “business” as that is what we are taught to do, but fairdinkum, sometimes you have to just open your eyes and see what is going on.

    As far as network 21 and IDA go you need to get your facts straight.

    Tom & Caryn Avelsgaard are NOT in another multi level marketing business, whther it be Mona Vie or anything else, and they have NEVERr pursaded anyone else to chnage from Amway to something else.

    Network 21 has been using the tactic of “stacking” over the past several years and even though they grew it didn’t last as stacking dosen’t provide profiability as they found out, and have since declined in numbers very severly.

    Amway was once a great company, but through poor management and not keeping up to date with present trends, their business is presently tumbling very fast around them. The only growth they are having is in Russia, China and India and all those markets are extremely limited. The opportunitys in the western world are extremely limited and will probably follow the way of the U.K.

    The new “Amway” of the future will be companies such as Mona Vie etc who are providing better compensation and are working with not against their distributor forces. Amway has always used the line that other comapnies come and go but Amway will always be here, but I believe that in the near future people will be saying that Amway “went” as it didn’t listen, became to arrogant, to greedy and believed it’s own press.

    You have companies like Mona Vie who have done over a billion in 3 years, and pay well in the lower,middle and upper levels. They also post the highs the lows and the average for each level reached per annum. Could you ever imagine Amway doing that? Not a chance, they would be humiliated.
    Amway only pays well in the high Diamond areas and it is almost impossible to maintain a good diamond business. Once again, check what your upline diamonds are making outside tools and you will be extremely surprised.

    I’m not anti Amway. I have made good money out of them in the past, but I believe that their time has come.

  6. Last I checked Amway Australia ABOs weren’t trying to sell Double X or glister to Americans?

    And how did you calculate US tax since it’s different in different states?

    Apart from that, as has already been announced there’s apparently some price adjustments coming to Amway Oz next month.

  7. The product prices of CORE line products are much more expensive in Australia compared to USA.. the products like double x, artistry line, all nutrilite line, home products including the toothpastes, etc.. and the average income in Australia is much lower, and the cost of living is high in major cities in Australia compared to USA.. how does the company expects to grow faster…??

    [b][u]Comparision of Double X[/u][/b]:
    [u]IN AUSTRALIA[/u]:
    Retail Price: AUS $122.40
    IBO Price after Tax: AUS $90.70
    After 21% discount (for silver or up on BV): AUS $73.38

    IN USA:
    Retail Price: US $78.05
    IBO Price after Tax: US $57.14
    After 25% discount (for silver or up on BV): US $39.50
    If you convert in Australia Dollas: AUS $44.60
    Almost 70% more!!!!!

    Same with Glister toothpaste: IBO Price in Australia: AUS $12.21, IN USA: US$4.10~AUS $4.63
    [b]MORE THAN 250% EXPENSIVE..!!![/b]

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