Amway critics and credibility – another one bites the dust

When you read stuff on the internet, it’s difficult to know what’s true and what’s not – generally all one can do is assess an authors credibility by what they say and how accurate it is. Everyone makes mistakes occasionally, but if people are making major errors of fact in their posts … well, it damages their credibility. If those errors are about what their entire post and/or blog is about, it damages the credibility of everything they post. Amway critics regularly try to damage the credibility of this site by attacking me (with often wildly inaccurate claims) rather than what I say and the information I present. It doesn’t matter, this site isn’t about me, I don’t care what you think about me - judge the credibility of what I write. Is it generally accurate? Do I backed it up by sources when I can? Judge what I write, not me. When someone resorts to ad hominem what it really does is reveal how little logical and factual basis the attacker has to try to discredit the other person – if you can’t attack the argument, attack the person.

So what’s the credibility of the Amway critics like? For just two examples, it was discovered several years ago that prolific Amway critic Scott Larsen didn’t know the basics of the 4% leadership bonus and a number of his supposed Amway business “analysis” were based on a complete fallacy. More recently an Indian blogger, Shyam Sundar with the impressively named “Corporate Fraud Watch” blog referred to the 6% bonus level as “ruby” and has made various other claims about Amway that show he has no actual idea how the business works. Now, these guys aren’t necessarily being dishonest here (unlike JoeCool) - they’re just ignorant. They simply don’t know what they’re talking about. What’s sad is that many “beliefs” about the Amway business are based not on reality, but on these “false facts” and ignorance – perhaps sadder though is that many people investigating the Amway business read these sites and believe them.

Today I encountered yet another example of the kind of prolific ignorance I’m talking about. I’ve noticed over the last few years that (the TEAM debacle aside) there’s been a real drop in the number of Amway critics on the internet, in particular those who have had any actual experience with the business. Surprisingly, most Amway critics on the ‘net have had no personal experience at all with Amway and those that have been Amway distributors had their experiences as much as a decade or more ago. Yet many of these same critics all keep claiming nothing has changed with Amway – that even the legitimate criticisms they had (and there are quite a few) still apply in 2009. If so, where are all the new Amway critics?

To their credit, they do seem to realise that the lack of new Amway critics, and the lack of activity on anti-Amway internet forums, must mean something. But what? I think it means that many of the aspects of Amway (primarily how some people approached the business, and prospects) have been significantly improved over the last decade. Amway has for example implented things like accreditation for Amway Global (North America), ensuring those offering training and motivational products and services to Amway business owners have clear guidelines about what they can and cannot say and do. Amway has also terminated numerous Diamonds and above over the past decade or so. Indeed it’s interesting to note that former Emerald Eric Scheibler’s upline Diamond Fred Harteis is no longer with Amway. Neither are various Diamonds and above in the upline of former Emerald Jeff Probant. Indeed, I believe even Scott Larsen’s upline (for his very small time in the business) is out.

Things have changed.

Amway critics though have come up with another reason for the lack of new Amway critics – the business in North America must be dying, nobody new is joining, so there’s no new critics. This is a semi-plausible explanation – except it doesn’t seem backed up by any facts. Amway Global sales were probably down slightly last year, but may even have gone up - and this is in the context of some 30,000 active IBOs leaving in the TEAM debacle. This would seem to be evidence that other groups within Amway must be growing quite significantly, not shrinking. Furthermore, and this is anecdotal so needs to be treated with appropriate caution, I’ve had reports from multiple different sources that sponsoring rates in North America are up significantly this year. Traffic on my sites, AmwayWiki, AmwayWatch, AmwayTalk and The Truth About Amway has increased by more than 200% in the past year. Amway Global Achieve magazine continues to recognize page after page of new Silver Producers and above. Amway critics have no idea whether Amway Global is growing or not, they’re just idle gossipers. I’m reminded of a post I did last year, where I highlighted an Amway critic claiming a certain Emerald’s business was falling apart, he was no longer qualifying, and he was probably going to have to get a job. The only problem was … this “Emerald”, whose business was supposedly falling apart, had just qualified Diamond!

And that’s what this post is about – credibility – and for that I give you this quote from Amway critic Rocket, today explaining why the numbers of platinums being recognized by Amway Global has no bearing on whether Amway Global is growing or shrinking -

You could have a guy in Canada who immigrated from India, and sponsors his friends back in India, but nobody else in Canada, yet still attains a platinum pin.

No Rocket, you can’t. Platinum volume comes entirely in market – ie, if you are recognized as a new Platinum in North America, it doesn’t matter if you’ve got a Crown Ambassador in a leg in China – his volume does not count towards your Platinum volume. This isn’t some secret knowledge – knowing what’s required to qualify Platinum is one of the most basic pieces of information even a beginning Amway business owner would want to know. Yet rocket, who has been commenting on Amway for years, including running his own anti-Amway blog for more than 4 years … well, he doesn’t even know this basic piece of information.

And it’s not just RocketJoeCool commented on Rocket’s post and didn’t seem to notice this major blunder at the heart of it. Scott Larsen added his thoughts as well – no mention from him of the blunder either, nor from another critic  “mrmaximum”. None of these Amway critics seem to know even this basic tenet of the Amway business – do people really believe what these guys write?

Clueless.

141 thoughts on “Amway critics and credibility – another one bites the dust”

  1. I have not seen any followers of any critics.They don’t have any work that’s why these people criticize everything.Best way is to ignore them.
    One can’t fool people for last 53 years. If somebody thing so then they should stand in front of the mirror to see the fools.

  2. One more… As a critic.. Consider each month the amway business ROI ( return on investment). Always a profit should be desirable and a must 6 months of the year. Consider this from the beginning when first starting business.. Forget the tool count , tape flow, number attending functions and etc… Why u ask. Because as a starter you don’t get ant income from these. For every expense you must have income to support, otherwise dummy u don’t make profit, which by the way is why Britt/ Yeager/ Duncan and Amway run a business… So wake up, you should also focus on same. Follow the thought– do when u are small so when your business is large it will be natural…

    Lastly – consider meals, gasoline/ oil/ tires and etc all as an expense. Remember if you don’t get a check/ cash for the item, it’s an expense. This part isn’t rocket science… Don’t go a year on the concept of faith hoping more effort will improve, because always must evaluate ROI. It’s your money … Use it wisely.

    1. All of this (except ignoring tool count etc) is reasonable advice – and is exactly what is taught. I was just listening to a speech last week where the speaker was talking about having to reach revenue neutral as soon as possible and get in to profit. Have you read the IBOAI site and tax information? Have you progressed past Amway 1993? (and only in some groups?)

  3. As we are in a one time large / miller organization I can speak / address with facts that most folks do not necessarily put forth all effort. On the other hand few ever buy tools from business profit which is a definite error. Likewise many falsehoods are regularly told of why to purchases tools. Further if a business distributor ship were of any value the average gross profit per business would be greater than $300 per year. A truly tragic and very poor business indeed. Briit or Miller if they had any truth in them would solution the issue, but sadly they don’t ) nor do they have the ability. Paul is still a friend even though he doesn’t have these abilities. Britt on the other hand has always had poor judgement and lacks good judgement. Peggy knows only too well. By the way, simple consultants could solve the issues for both the tool and gross income problems.

    1. William, the annualized average yearly gross profit for “active” IBOs $2424 – more than 8 times what you say it is. And that’s *excluding* annual bonuses. What’s truly “tragic and very poor” is the complete lack of knowledge you appear to have of Amway in the 21st century (though I don’t think the gross profit has ever been as low as $300/yr!)

  4. I looked at this blog 7 month ago before I got into Samir and Theresa Attalah’s business and now I have been in their biz now for more than six month. I enjoy to see samir and theresa anytime I can as they are great people of integrity and got my very angry and discusted even my wife to see other people who have no life to live but to post negative carbage about great leaders and it make me sick to my stomach to reat ty Tribble,Bo short, and Scott Larson input and when I got information about them,they accoplished nothing with their lives.I am glad to be smart enough to be in the awesome Amway business and in short period I can see the changes in my life. I do not have too many chances to get together with Samir and Theresa but I thank God for them every day being in my life.

  5. OK People, look at what the underlying theme is here that this author is trying to sell you. It’s an old Greg Duncan lie to get you distracted from what critics are saying. They always say that the critics have nothing better to do and to not listen to them because they’re probably broke and don’t have the lifestyle you want, etc… So what is this author above REALLY saying? To get you distracted, he is saying that EVERYTHING that ANY critic says is 100% false and incorrect, 100% of the time. They’re saying you can’t listen to the critics AT ALL because either “sometimes” they’re wrong or because they don’t have the lifesytle YOU want. So then I ask, do pastors and preachers EVER get anything wrong? (Are they rich and free?) If Pastors get things wrong once in a while, then according to YOUR logic, every pastor everywhere is ALWAYS wrong about everything. If this “Larsen” critic he mentions says that the sky is blue, then according to YOUR line of reasoning, it’s NOT blue! Make sense?
    So my point is, that EVERYONE gets things wrong here and there, INCLUDING your diamonds! They get statistics wrong a lot and other things they say and they correct themselves later. -SOME of them do. I respect the ones that do. Like Brad Duncan always quotes differing divorce rates. Which by the way, he’s never gotten right still. (See http://www.michaelmedved.com and his books for the true divorce rate stats). But Brad corrected himself on stage at least once and now just gives a range of the divorce rates, which his range is still incorrect, but I respect him for his effort.
    But the point here now is, just because Brad gets some numbers and other things wrong in his life, then he MUST be wrong and a liar ALL the time and can’t be trusted at all, according to YOUR logic you’re trying to use. (Is Brad right 100% time about 100% of everything in his life? Of course not. No one is.) But then you can’t hold critics to that same standard or you have what’s called a “double-standard” and by default YOU are a hypocrite. Let’s be fair. Just because a critic gets some numbers wrong here and there, how does this make him wrong about EVERYTHING? He can’t ever have a TRUE point? …Nice try!
    Have YOU ever criticized someone else, like say, the President of the United States? Your kids’ school and their teachers? Well you can’t do that because YOU get things wrong once in a while in your life AND you have never been a licensed school teacher or the President of the United States, so you CAN’T criticize. See what I mean? Just because a critic gets stuff wrong once in while, does that mean he can’t ever put forth true facts too AND make good & true points? Otherwise, we can’t trust Amway or ANY of the diamonds.
    Speaking of which, many FED’s are there now, as compared to years past? 2 for your organization? -Like in WWDB? (Used to be 7 after they switched to Quixtar.) How many NEW Diamonds in the U.S. now? How many new in WWDB (U.S.)? Yes, OUCH!
    Doesn’t that make you wonder why? & Where’s the REAL growth, especially in North America? World Wide Dream Builders used to have 56 diamonds in qualification and now they’ve lost almost 30! Not to mention Brad Wolgomott finally got divorced after cheating on his wife for 20 plus years. I guess Leslie finally had enough. Poor gal. My heart breaks for her. Ask Brad, he won’t deny it. Anyway, that’s just ONE organization. WWDB lost Dean Kosage, Jim and Julie Harstad, several platinums and of Wolgamott too.
    Greg Duncan, before his recent bankruptcy sent a voicemail out to the diamonds and my diamond actually passed it out on accident. Greg was pleading with the diamonds to go out and sponsor 24 new people in width because they, as diamonds and WWDB, were in “big trouble”! -His words. And that about 2 years ago there were only 13 Q12 Ruby’s in North America ALONE, much less WWDB! Guess what? There’s less now! (There’s more than 13 Ruby’s in North America, I think, but less than a dozen that are Q12, qualified 12 months out of 12, that’s for sure.)
    So come on people. Think for yourself for once in your life. Sincerely, I say this. Quit giving these diamonds your life so THEY can continue to have a nice life. Nice life? Is this nice life why Greg Duncan needed a 1 million dollar loan from Amway? -Google it! It’s true. Then right after, he mysteriously shows a $300,000+ bonus check on stage, AFTER getting his loan. Funny how that works!
    What is going to take for you to realize that you will NEVER show the plan 5-7 times a week for 2 years straight to hopefully go Ruby? Another wasted 10, 20 years of YOUR life? You’ve heard all the diamonds tell you that these are the numbers it takes to get a Ruby biz. -Especially now with the internet and all this free info out there that you have to battle. Yes, the internet isn’t going away and is what they call the great equalizer! Or in the diamonds words, their worst nightmare! DO SOMETHING ELSE PEOPLE! There’s plenty of opportunity out there!
    Don’t worry about jobs and such. Think about it, ALL money that comes into the business and your organization comes from where? JOBs, people! Jobs! If there are no jobs in the future, like they try to scare you with, then gues what? NO bonus checks for YOU, Mr. IBO! Think about it! As goes the economy, so goes ANY business. If I can’t pay my mortgage, why in the world would I lose my house so I can buy some vitamins and energy drinks I don’t really need? Why would I spend $400+ bucks to go to a function when I can’t make my rent or car payment? As an example. Bet you never thought of it that way! Right? Be honest with YOURSELF for once in your life. I’m just trying to help you see both sides. I know you are sincere and desperately want to success. But you are wasting you time and your life. How old are you now? Life goes by fast, my friend.

    PLEASE think constructively people. Think for yourself instead of letting Samir control your thinking and your future. It only benefits him.

    1. Yes, Samir Attalah is my upline diamond. At least until my IBO # expires in Jan. Did you know that my diamond is a criminal? He brags about how he made $220,000 as a Ruby back then, but still felt the need to shoplift at Nordstrom’s Rack. He stole several suits and got arrested! It’s public information. (Just google Samir Attalah) YET, he claims to be a committed Christian, even back then. Yet he’s a theif and he lied about it and still does. Mr. Integrity, I call him because he says ALL THE TIME that Character and Integrity are the most important things to him. Yah, right.
      We were very close for many years, until I got so sick of his lies and gossip. He’s not the nice guy you think he is. He thinks it’s OK for Brad Duncan to smoke and look at porn. It’s true; I’ve seen it first hand. Same with Julie Duncan shopping at Staples, almost weekly. Google it. I think there’s video now too on here doing this.
      What I’m trying to say is that I know for a FACT, from first hand experience on the inside, that over 80% of the diamonds’ income is from tools and the system. why can’t they tell you that? Because they know 99% of the people in the busines will never go diamond, much less platinum. IF they tell you the truth, then they are done! The business is their livlihood! Duh! See what I mean when I say, “think” for yourself for a change?! …See my last post above. It’s true, but YOU decide for yourself. :)

      1. I have no experience at all of Samir Attalah, but the reports of his alleged shoplifting are in numerous places on the net. (I say alleged because I’ve never made the effort to confirm it). Some of your other comments are just plain silly. Who cares if Julie Duncan buys stuff at Staples? Or Brad Duncan smokes and looks at porn? Lots of people shop at staples, smoke, and look at porn. Where in the Amway rules of conduct does it say Amway IBOs can’t?

      2. Im not in Samirs business but I do know Samir personally and have known Samir for 26 years. As for the situation with Nordstroms Who are you to speak and judge Samir Attalah and his action. Samir Attalah is a man of character and integrity, his life speaks for itself: his great business that keeps on growing and flourishing, his outstanding children and awesome wife who is one outstanding mother and powerful woman of God. Samir is one of rarley few men in this world that is a man of honesty, integrity, character, and a great family man. You think you know everything about Samir well you dont know him as good as I do hot shot you must be another quitter that comes and goes and ends up posting negative blog like the rest of those who quit before you.

      3. AP or JR I just want to make a comment on what you said First of all who are you to judge a person for the things that happened 22years ago and if its true do you think a person can change and become a man of integrity. I know for a fact that Samir got restoration from Nordstrom for wrong accusation and Samir is not some little man to be look at gossip and justify himself. what you read is from Larson who defames Amway business not samir from innocent good people to prosper in life and to let you know Samir was not even a platnium when this Nordstrom instant happened. Samir went Ruby in the beginning of 1991 to be exact March 1991. It seems you dont fit in such a great business with integrity.

      4. AP, you are either not an IBO or not a very active one. Like IBOFB said above, just read what critics write. AP, you wrote that your IBO# expires in January. Really? Any IBO knows you renew in September as Amway’s fiscal year runs Sept – Aug. These inane and grammatically challenged posts annoy me more than anything. Learn how to spell, type or tell the truth.

        1. Well…actually, IBOships do “expire” the 1st of January if they haven’t been renewed for the fiscal year, which does start Sept 1st. Amway offers a grace period of a few months, and then flushes out your LOS on January 1st, leaving only those who have renewed.
          Not a big correction, but just thought I’d point that out that that part of AP’s comment is valid.

    2. You say “he is saying that EVERYTHING that ANY critic says is 100% false and incorrect, 100% of the time.” Care to point out where I say that? Indeed I’ve often pointed out the opposite. As for the rest, it seems to come down “they were promoted as gods but they’re actually human”. Well, duh. That type of overhyped promotion is something I’ve complained about on this site and elsewhere often. Indeed just this week we’re having a discussion on Amway Talk about the (mis)use of marriage/divorce statistics. Oh, but that’s right, I want people to believe critics are 100% wrong! I better go delete that thread! :)

      As for folks economic decisions, people make bad mistakes. Doesn’t matter if your income is a million bucks a yeah or a thousand. Misuse it and you can get in trouble. And yes, Amway is just like any other business, it has it’s ups and down and challenges. Oh no – there I go agreeing with a critic again! I thought I was supposed to be trying to make everyone believe critics are 100% wrong!

      The thing with critics like JoeCool though, is that he has been caught being deliberately dishonest or misleading again and again. In that situation it’s not a matter of whether something is right or wrong, it’s a matter of what can you believe? You have to check and confirm everything! It really is easier to just go find someone who’s at least honest. (yeah, and that goes for any dishonest diamonds too!)

    3. AMEN! Amway got 2 years of my life. I started out with such high hopes. I saw Brad Wolgamott and Brad Duncan having so much fun. They made it all sound so easy…. so why weren’t my upline even directs…after 7 years? If it was only 2-5 years to Diamond… which part of the ‘plan’ wasn’t working for them? I gave it 2 years, got my 1000 pin, learned some business acumen and made some friends.

      1. Matt, Why do you assume the plan wasn’t working for them, rather than that they weren’t working the plan? I’ve been an IBO for 15 years. I’ve never even put in 2 years straight of the effort recommended. Why should I (or anyone else) expect to get results without the effort? Did you show 15 plans a month to legitimate prospects for 2 years without missing a month, Matt? Did you have 10+ regular customers? Did you generate a minimum 200PV personally every month from your own use and that of your customers? etc etc. I’ve never met anyone who actually did what we teach people to do who hasn’t achieved results.

        That all aside, I hope they didn’t make it “sound so easy”. It’s not. It’s simple. But it’s damn hard to consistently put the effort in, every single month, on top of your existing work an study and social life. It’s simple, but it’s not easy. Too often people mistake the two.

  6. ibofightback,

    in that case, you are not hiding the fact that people who profit from selling the tools than selling the products. In my few 1-2 meetings, the tactic is about recruiting and emphasis on the motivational business… what is the average cost a member has to pay a year?

    1. James, much of the Amway literature, and indeed the contracts you sign to join, point out that people can profit from selling BSM. Personally when I joined I didn’t think about it much – seems pretty obvious to me that if someone is selling something, someone is making money! I was surprised to find out people were surprised …

      The average a cost a member *has* to pay is zero, because Amway rules say BSM purchases are all optional. Indeed, the vast majority of people who sign up with Amway don’t purchase BSM. For active business builders though, I’d say the average is around a $2-300/mth – in other words, cheaper than similar materials and seminars from elsewhere.

  7. I have been to a meeting and listened to a couple of discs. It is very intriguing. However, as I research this, I keep coming back to negative info regarding the emphasis put on purchasing “tools” and how this method is really where a good deal of $ is made. I just finished another impromptu meeting and most of his talk was about training. I certainly understand that Amway has created a successful method and want to convey that to the IBO, however, if that is what drives the income, they should be upfront with that information as well. Do you have pertinent information about this? If so, I would appreciate hearing back from you.
    Regards,
    Lee

    1. Hi Lee,
      I plan on a more in-depth post on this, but just quickly – the idea that “most of the money is in tools” is a myth. For various reasons, which I’ll go into when I do the larger post, some top leaders can end up earning more from providing tools and training services than they do from Amway, but it’s certainly not the norm. As for why people aren’t “upfront” about the fact you can also earn income through this, well there’s a simple reason for that – it’s illegal to tell you about it! It’s against the law to encourage someone to sign a contract with a company (eg Amway) by offering them inducements from another company (ie the BSM companies). So if we tell you – btw, if you join Amway and build a big business, then this other company over here will give you bulk discounts on CDs, and you can make money through that too … we’ve broken the law.

      1. This is really illogical conversation you have posted. Try math with logic then compute ROI on the Amway business. Use wisdom , not false logic to justify statements then make comments.

  8. It’s true that MLM isn’t the only means by which people can deceive themselves. What about all those ignorant people who think that all they need to do to earn a living without a boss is to have an idea or a skill, set up a shopfront and away they go! If this really was going to work for the majority, then, hello, why are the majority still either working for someone else, or else (often SAHMs or retirees) working from home at low overheads?? Not to mention all the people who assume that if you are running your own business you must be rich… just because the clients pay a lot by the hour, and just because the money ostensibly doesn’t go to someone “above” you lol! Again, if that were true, why aren’t more people doing it?

  9. One of the great things about this business is the low cost of entry. Pretty much anyone can get in. One of the bad things about this business is the low cost of entry. Many people that get in don’t take it seriously. Only a handful of the people that have joined me or my downline in the business have ever made a list of their goals with a deadline, made a list of at least 100 names, made a time commitment, actuallly sat down and booked appointments with their prospects or held a grand opening, or counseled with their upline. Some of them never even took it seriously enough to place an order.

    If a person who owns a conventional business works 12 to 16 hours a day, they are considered a hard-working pillar of the community that is providing well for their family. If someone in this business would put in those same hours, they would be considered a fanatic who was neglecting their family.

    If someone thinks a conventional business is wonderful, try running a janitorial business. Sometimes the employees actually show up. When they don’t, you have to do it yourself. If your commercial vac quits working and you need a new one, they are $300. Clean a building with an atrium? I do. You’ll need a duster with about eight 5-foot sections. Along with supplies, you’ll need liability insurance and need to be bonded. You’ll probably need a pickup or a full-size van. You’ll need an office. A newspaper or yellow pages ad. A CPA. And on it goes.

    For this business, you need a list of names, some goals, and a true desire to achieve them. You don’t even need a computer, although it helps. We have IBOs that don’t have computers. They either go to the library to use them or call their orders in.

    A conventional business is totally dependent upon the owner’s or manager’s ability to get the customers to walk in the door. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don’t. If that’s what you want, go for it.

    If I have set up my customers and IBOs properly, they will continue to order or build with or without me. All without the massive overhead of a conventional business. And I think if all IBOs really REALLY realized what they have ahold of, me included, we’d all be working a lot harder than we are.

  10. Mark, you agree that most IBO’s don’t put in the required effort. Again, that is my point.

    Also, I agree with Bridgett, you seem to think that its a good thing to have to borrow to make your business grow. That puts you under the thumb of the lender in my opinion.

Please Leave a Reply. Abusive comments, comments with fake email addresses, or comments soliciting for business will be deleted.