A common cry of the anti-Amway zealots is that the “odds” or “chance” of an individual being successful in Amway are low. They’ll typically look at some of Amway’s published statistics, such as the fact that in 2005, .0120% of “Direct Fulfillment IBOs of Record” qualifed at the Diamond level, and claim that your “odds” of going Diamond are 1 in 8333, so you’d be better off at Vegas, where your “odds” of winning on a single number in say, roulette are 1 in 29.
Oft-quoted anti-MLM zealot Jon M. Taylor, Ph.D., President, Consumer Awareness Institute, and Director, Pyramid Scheme Alert, for example, claims that -
The odds of winning from a single spin of the wheel in a game of roulette in Las Vegas is 286 times as great as the odds of profiting after enrolling as an Amway/Quixtar “distributor”
A quick bit of math shows that Dr Taylor thus claims the “odds” of profiting in Amway are 1 in 8294. He calculates these “odds” based on numerous assumptions (for which I might add, he has next to no data to support), including what peoples expenses are. Now, for the purposes of this post I’m going to ignore these type of assumptions, but if they are correct (they’re not) then his “odds” might be a reasonable statistic to consider, except for one thing - unlike roulette, Amway is not a game of chance.
For many people, the term “odds” is most familiar in the area of betting and horse racing, so I’ll use an example from that arena. The Kentucky Derby is one of the world’s biggest horse races. The 2008 Derby had 20 starters, of which (ties aside), only 1 could win. What are the odds than any particular horse would win? Using the thought processes of anti-MLM zealots like Jon Taylor, they’d be 1 in 20, or 5%. In reality, bookmakers provided betting odds that ranged from 50:1 (2%) for Big Truck to 3:1 (25%) for the eventual winner, Big Brown.
Why aren’t the “odds” of winning the Kentuck Derby for each horse simply 5%, as Dr Taylor’s Amway assertion would have you believe? Simple - horse racing is not a game of chance. Bookmakers take in to account many factors in deciding whether a horse is likely to win, including past performance, track conditions, the weather, the jockey etc etc.
The same principles apply to the Amway business. The “odds” of your success vary dramatically based on a number of factors. The first factor is, of course, determining precisely what “success” is for you. For example, in their investigation into a proposed new business opportunity rule, the FTC said that MLM company Shaklee reports 85% of folk who join that company do so purely to receive products at distributor pricing. “Success” for a such a person would be placing an order and receiving it successfully!
If this was your goal in joining Amway (and it is for many people), what are your “odds” of success, using the methodology proposed by Dr Jon Taylor?
Goal: Buy Amway products at distributor pricing
Odds of success: 50% (Jon Taylor methodology)
50%?!?!? Surely everyone who registers with Amway as an Amway business owner gets their products at distributor pricing? Well … yes (UK&ROI market aside, which has a slightly different model) … however statistics revealed in the Team vs Quixtar dispute of 2007 show that only 50% of folk who registered with Quixtar ever placed an order after joining.
I’m sure you’ll agree though, that shopping from Amway/Quixtar is not a game of chance. There are things you can do to influence your success - you could for example, actually place an order! Voila - your “odds” have suddenly doubled to around 100%.
Dr Jon Taylor, Robert FitzPatrick, and other anti-Amway zealots such as “JoeCool” and “Rocket” would have us ignore not only what an individual’s goal(s) are, but also factors that influence that goal. Clearly this is a ridiculous and indefensible position. In Dr Taylor’s case, it’s a disgraceful one, as he is the holder of a Ph.D in Applied Psychology from the University of Utah. Having qualifications in psychology myself, I can assure you that you do not achieve a Ph.D. without a reasonable grasp of probably and statistics.
With regards to MLM statistics, Dr Taylor is either delusional or utterly dishonest.
So what are the real odds of success in Amway for various goals, and what factors influence them? Well, clearly if your goal is wholesale price purchasing, then your odds of success are 100% if you place an order. Just as clearly, someone who joins and never even places and orders products is extremely unlikely to ever make any money. Indeed, I would suggest the probability of success for that group is 0%. Using this kind of information, just like bookmakers with horses, we can come up with “odds” that better reflect reality.
The 2008 Amway Global Sales Incentive Brochure reports for example that 0.3685% of North American IBOs qualify as Platinums or higher - that’s about 1 in 271. Yet we know that half of those 271 never even place an order, so their “odds” of reaching platinum were effectively zero. So …
If you place an order, your odds of being a platinum are about 1 in 135.
The TEAM vs Quixtar lawsuit in California also revealed that only 23.4% of Amway business owners ever sponsor anyone. While I’m sure there are folk who have qualified platinum purely on customer sales, without having sponsored anyone, it’s likely that the percentage who do so approximates zero. So …
If you sponsor at least one person, your odds of being a platinum are about 1 in 63.
Refining it further, the TEAM case revealed that only 12.9% of Amway business owners ever receive a bonus on downline volume. To receive a bonus you have to have a downline and at least 50PV of customer volume, plus be at a higher bonus bracket than the downline.
If you qualify for a bonus on downline volume, then your odds of being a platinum are 1 in 35.
Let’s put this in perspective. If all you do is join Amway and do enough to earn a bonus on downline volume, then already your “odds” of being close to developing a business earning $50,000K/yr+ (Q-12 Platinum) is approaching 1 in 35 - compare this to Dr Taylors simplistic claim that the “odds” of simply making a profit are 1 in 8294 (0.01%)
Clearly, earning a profit in the Amway business involves a lot more than simply signing a form and paying the registration fee, as Dr Taylor and others would have us believe. Taking action makes a difference! Indeed, the BERR vs Amway case in the United Kingdom revealed some even more astounding statistics -
- only 6% of agents bought Amway products to sell on
- 10% of agents make a profit
Leaving aside the fact this shows Dr Taylor’s claims re profit were out by a factor of 1000(!!!), it also reveals something else. It’s a reasonable assumption that those agents who made a profit included virtually all of those who onsold the product to consumers. If so -
if you have customers, then your “odds” of making a profit from an Amway business are approximately 100%
Amway is not a game of chance. It’s a business. Treat it as such and the odds of success are clearly very good indeed.
Bravo Ibofightback! People who ask, “what’s the percentage chance of making it”, don’t understand success. Success is not a matter of chance. It’s a matter of choice, then taking action.
“Have you ever noticed that when you read stories about lottery winners, they are hardly ever bank presidents, successful entrepreneurs or corporate executives? That they never seem to be people who were already financially successful before they bought that winning ticket? Have you ever wondered why? It’s because successful people never win the lottery. Why not? Because they don’t buy lottery tickets.
Successful people have already grasped the truth that lottery players have not: life is not a lottery. Success is not a random accident.”
From the Slight Edge by Jeff Olson.
I hope that everyone gets a copy of that book. Reads, then applies it!
I think that one reason that most IBOs are not successful is that even though Amway/Quixtar provides lots of “training” (rah, rah, product information), it provide ZERO training (in general) on how to actually run a business: taking and tracking orders, order fulfillment to your direct customers, tracking income and revenue, automating all of that, etc. And Quixtar provided no tools on their website for keeping track of this information (at least none that I could find).
If you don’t teach people how to actually run the business (as opposed to selling products or selling the business) you increase the changes of them failing.
MQ - I mostly agree, but there are actually resources made available - see particularly resources on the IBOAI site and in particular IBO BookKeeping 101). However, I doubt most IBOs even know about it. In general I think that type of training works best in smaller group meetings (less than 30) so it should be handled at an LOS level, not by Quixtar or the LOAs per se, but one or both could certainly provide curriculum material for teaching. I also wonder if part of the problem is that differing state laws make both the material and teaching of it potentially problematic and thus it’s just been put in the “too hard basket”.
It needs to be taken out.
fantastic reasoning! the fact that in Malaysia, when you sign up as an Amway distributor, you pay a ,measly RM85! and get a starter kit containing catalogues, brochures and sales aid. you have 1 whole year to try it. If you feel that its not your cup of tea or coffee, or whatever, you can return the kit and and get a full refund. That simply means…its a risk free venture.
when you join to enjoy member’s price, you order online via your account, and pay online too, and the delivery will send it straight to your doorstep! you don’t even have to spend money on fuel to go to shop! and if you don’t like the products, return it for again, a full refund! or change to more suitable product. Again, NO RISK.
The products are competitively priced, looking at the quality, effectiveness, safety and cost per use, the products are definitely saleable. Now with the issues about melamine in milk from China, and contaminated foos supplements from Australia and fish oil from UK, customers will pay “a premium” for guarantee of safety and efficacy.
Try and start ANY business, or get into any franchise! no such thing as NO RISK.
Excellent post!!! Your determinative statement was:
“If you have customers, then your “odds” of making a profit from an Amway business are approximately 100%.”
The stats being used by Taylor regarding percentages who achieve a particular level are out of date (even though they originated with Quixtar), and don’t recognize the major shift and transformation of the business model focus to retail sales.
MissingQuixtar: how long since you left the business? Quixtar (now Amway Global) DOES provide some basic business management training… ever heard of Quixtar University, or taken the courses offered?
Your slip is showing…
Your “odds” of success in Amway is 1 to 1, because you either decide to succeed (and do the necessary work) or you decide to fail. Besides, what are the odds of becoming a state Attorney General in the United States? 300 million to 50. Ummm, let me think…yep, I’ll stick with Amway.
Wow, excellent article!
While I agree with Jeffrey about the 1 to 1 odds, most people will dismiss that. Not because it is wrong, but people do not believe it is as simple as “making the choice”. We dismiss such a simple thought, because we think “if it was that simple I would have done it by now”.
But a rational person cannot argue with the articles statistics. Once you get to the 1 in 35 odds, you can then take a look at other factors that contribute to being successful. Out of the 1 in 35 how many write down goals, how many work with a coach/mentor to follow a specific plan, how many track results of the plan then go back to the coach/mentor to refine the plan, etc.
There are hundreds of ways to put the “odds” in you favor, just know what “success” is for you then do SOMETHING everyday to get closer to it.
Great article as usual. One objection that mlmers get from prospects quiet bit is: what are the chances of succeeding in this thing. If an IBO remembers some of these facts by-heart, it can help him a long way. ” Your chances of success in this business are as follows: If you order a product…, If you sell a product…, If you share this opp…, If you sponsor… So, are you ready to start dramatically increasing your chances of success?”. Way to go ibofightback.
I’ve been following your writing for some time now, and I must say that this is the biggest load of hogwash I’ve seen you write.
When someone asks what the chances of being successful are, it’s pretty obvious what they are asking.
It took you a long post to say that they aren’t failing if they buy products from themselves and sponsor one other person.
I’ve heard of tweaking numbers before, but this is outright deception on your part IBOFB.
I was referred here by a friend who is one of the “zealots” you refer to because I was prospected. I won’t be joining after investigating the likes of you.
If it takes that much effort to explain why it ISN’T a scam, it probably IS a scam.
You blew me out. Keep it up.
Care to actually point out any specific hogwash and “tweaking numbers”?
There was no tweaking, the numbers are exactly as reported by Quixtar and provided by TEAM in the TEAM vs Quixtar case in California.
And I most certainly never said anything remotely like -
“It took you a long post to say that they aren’t failing if they buy products from themselves and sponsor one other person.”
The simple fact is that, of IBOs who sponsor at least one person and qualify for a bonus on downline volume, 1 in 35 are platinum.
No hogwash, no tweaking, just the facts. Apparently you don’t like them. Sorry, much as you may disagree with them, facts don’t care about opinions.
Your facts are simply a scheme.
You obviously will benefit from it.
Less than 5% of products are retailed to non-IBO’s.
Very few attain the success that is imnplied during the showing of the opportunity.
You’re a dishonest man at best.
Best of luck to you. I’m glad I found out about you before I decided to join.
I feel badly for current IBO’s who want to do it right, but have someone like you defending them.
PS My would be sponsor and some of his group took a look at this site, and as a result, have decided this isn’t for them as well.
You should be aware of that, and I will tell everyone who I know that ever talks about Amway to look here, and compare it to the “zealots” and decide for themselves who makes more sense.
Because it sure as heck isn’t you.
Now c’mon, no dodging with the laughable BS. Tell me - what part of my post was “hogwash” and “tweaking numbers”?
What’s laughable BS is you trying to make Amway look good.
What’s laughable is the amount of effort you expend on this, and it makes no difdference. I’m not going to get into it with you, but the picture you paint in your post is a far cry from reality, and I’ve no desire to try and go back and forth with someone who I feel is dishonest. A liar can keep lying, and I don’t want to encourage your behaviour.
Everyone sees right through you, like a cheap suit.
As a result, Amway has lost a dozen new IBO’s.
Dwell on that. Bye.
njn, I asked you a simple question. You claim I’m lying, but you refuse to point out where? Why is that? Please tell me what part of my post was “hogwash” and “tweaking numbers”
If I made a mistake in my calculations I’m more than happy to correct it.
It’s not the numbers. It’s the methodology and you know it.
I can prove lots of things too, but it doesn’t make it reality by proving on paper or by theory. In researching you, obviously you have no idea what it takes to be successful because you aren’t sucessful in Amway by anyone’s standards.
You are causing people to not become involved with Amway. I will point out your website to everyone. Enjoy the extra traffic Mr. Steadson!
What’s wrong with the methodology? It seems sound to me. If 50% of people do something, and you can identify the 50% not doing it, then you can safely claim 100% of the remainder are doing it.
What’s wrong with the methodology?
And what’s your name by the way? Since your keen on using names, only fair you share yours, don’t you think?
Go ahead and put the work into it and you can use mine, David.
It’s not too tough to find yours, you are as “zealot” like as those who oppose Amway.
Since YOU seem so keen on sharing how to succeed in Amway, why don’t YOU share how YOU succeeded.
Oh I forgot. You haven’t.
Makes taking you seriously rather difficult.
So I guess what your saying is that you -
(a) can find no fault in the figures
(b) can find no fault in the methodology
(c) can only give insults and spread BS
No wonder you chose to remain anonymous. Oh … and you have no idea what I have and haven’t done with Amway, so your “forgetfulness” is as honest as the rest of your comments.
Then what have YOU done?
Yes, you’re sure honest.
Doesn’t matter. people are quitting because of how you are perceived.
Cio!
Why is it that so often when Qritbots are challenged to actually give some details about what they’re whining about, they try to change the subject?
C’mon now, don’t be shy, I can take it if I’m wrong, I’m a big boy.
What’s wrong with the methodology?
Just so you know, I am also one of the people who declined after seeing this website.
I have neither the time, inclination, or desire to explain myself to you, but will heartily chime in that after reading this website, myself, notjoiningnow, and 10 others decided we didn’t want to be associated with dumbasses such as yourself David Steadson.
You give the good ones a bad name, and if it takes you that much time to explain your point, you never had one.
Nor does Amway, as long as you and people like you are in it.
Notjoiningnow had a very valid question that you choose to ignore, being, what exactly have YOU accomplished in Amway Dave? What makes you an expert? What’s your level, and how long did it take to get there?
Don’t preach about honesty when you choose not to abide by those purported values.
You would still be anonymous if Scott Larsen hadn’t outed you.
As it is, you have firmly entrenched yourself as part of the problem with what is wrong about Amway.
Congrats. Makes the “anti Amway zealots” job that much easier.
Plus they don’t seem to find the need to take the long way around when asked a question.
You don’t know squat about building Amway.
I’m thinking that because of you, a few of the dozen of us that quit are going to be starting up our own anti Amway and anti David Steadson blogs because idiots like you deserve it.
Bye. I won’t be back, but I’ll link to you, bitch!
Oh, I have no problem with people being anonymous. Just people being cowards when they choose to not respect other peoples choices, and make false accusations in the process.
Your friend (cough cough) refused to answer my question about what problems he found with my post, so perhaps you’d like to answer some - which part of my post has anything at all to do about me? Which part of my post relies on me being an “expert”? And which part haven’t I been honest about?
Please, share your knowledge and brilliance with the audience.
Your knowledge and brilliance is based on theory and nothing in the way of evidence.
If being successful in Amway is easy, then why aren’t you?
That’s what is meant.
Good grief, you’re an idiot. How can someone who thinks he’s so smart be so dumb?
The only way you could be dumber is by gaining weight!
Who said anything about being successful in Amway being easy?
And who said I’ve had no success in Amway?
But again - who cares about me apart from you and your anti-amway cultmates?
Simple question - what was wrong with the post?
‘MeNeither’, friend of ‘NotJoiningNow’, said:
“Bye. I won’t be back, but I’ll link to you,[low life language deleted]”
IBOFB my friend, tomorrow is Canadian Thanksgiving. On this fine day I will be giving thanks that the “dozen or so” claimed above won’t be registering their own Amway Global businesses. Count your blessings while you’re ahead. It’s so interesting that a certain type of non-business mentality is blown out, not by you, but really by people like SL mentioned above. When I read SL’s site a few years ago (and nothing has changed there), it was a major factor in CONVINCING me that this business model is valid and does work. It was his internal inconsistency and contradictory postures that clued me in, and I went on from there with further independent validating research of my own.
So lets give thanks that these kinds of folks self-select OUT of registering in our groups and take their ‘world of grief and hurt’ to some other organization!!!
PS to my last post… they were trying so hard to dump on YOU for “causing” them to not “join.” I would just say back, as Br’r Rabbit did when finally caught by Reddy the Fox, “Oh please Mr. Fox, do anything to me but don’t throw me into the briar patch!” LOL
Can you imagine trying to work with people who hold their underlying world view, business accumen?!!!
Ahh my friend, it’s my experience that the number of virulent anti-amway internet zealots is limited, and unfortunately some of them have shown themselves before to be less than honest.
So don’t believe folk are who they claim, or that their stories are true.
Yeah, I know. Their comments were too contrived and too obvious.
I think the point that is being missed here is the fact that there is no risk in building this business. I am a self employed contractor and with that business i have risk and my income is directlty effected by the economy. My Amway business is not effected by the economy other than the fact that more people are now looking for answers in uncertain economic times. If you treat this business as a business it pays off. It is very simple but you have to promote and actually put in effort, if you ran any traditional business with the little effort that IBO’s put into their business they would be bankrupt. We have fantastic product lines if Amway went the traditional route of selling in stores they would triple their volume in a year and not have to put up with all the whining! But Rich and Jay believed in giving the average person a chance to own their own business and have stuck with that model for 50 years.
http://www.webraw.com/quixtar/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4476
Just so people can get a balanced perspective should they stumble upon this.
Farewell…..and I noticed you never did state your pin level. Yep, you simply are dripping of experience and knowledge.
Isn’t there a classic tape in BWW or WWDB called ‘Pigs don’t know pigs stink’?
Whatever that tape was about, the title surely sticks well with these guys here - mn or njn or whoever!
IBOFB is what he’s called on these forums and that’s what we should address him as long as he states otherwise.
The way you used his name tells me a lot about your character - njn or mn or joecool or whoever.
I find it strange that the same methodology that was pretty good for Jon taylor and others is no more acceptable for IBOFB.
Who would want guys like you in their Amway business.
Amway has a history of 50 yrs.
What do you hv?
What’s your name?
Since you used IBOFB’s name I believe these are proper requests on my part - and BTW that’s my real name - and I don’t like posting with two different names!
Before I go I’m going to make sure something is stated clearly.
I am not posting under more than 1 name.
A check on ISP addresses will confirm that (Like he hasn’t already checked)
My real name is Dave. Help you out any?
Uhuh … and you “all” just happen to be posting from the same small town in Canada as anti-Amway zealot Rocket … gee, what an amazing coincidence ….
pull the other one, it’s got bells on.
Excellent post IBOFIGHTBACK..Thanks a lot.
I knew that the figure, which company has to provide because of legal requirements, are not the right picture of the success rate.
I really don’t give a damn to people like ‘NJN’ & ‘MN’, they don’t have the courage to come out and build this business on their own terms. If they don’t agree with the methodology, why don’t they come up with something better. These people will always look into the issues and I bet they always have something to complain about everything in life. Right NJN & MN??? Also, ‘NJN’ & ‘MN’, if you are planning to reply to this post, please let us know the last 5 non-fiction books that you have read, it will show the kind of thinking you guys carry.
Ibofightback, considering the open meetings that i have been to, I can clearly see that there is 1 platinum IBO for every 30-35 people in that meeting, which actually proves your point. Also you mentioned it rightly that sucess is a relative term, and varies with each one. Depend on the success level you want, you will work towards it.
Again Thanks a Lot for posting this.
Just to re-iterate what IBOfightBack does say in an earlier comment, the Amway business is NOT a game of chance.
Your chance of succeeding in the Amway business is nil, zero, zilch, nada, if you treat it like a game of chance.
I do like this post though, as it does point out that 2/3 of Amway distributors/IBOs/ABOs never sponsor someone who run enough volume to earn a bonus.
It’s not that people cannot be sponsored. It’s not that they cannot be helped to move volume. It’s just that most who’ve signed on the dotted line end their activity in this business before they even begin.
Why do so many measure success by using terms like “platinum, emerald or ruby”? Our emerald declared bankruptcy & on his own financial declaration he stated that his total income as an emerald (with tools income) was $3900 a month. He had no medical insurance, no retirement, no paid holidays, etc. Of course on stage he proalaimed his huge success & the downline believed he was successful because of his title. $3900 a month before taxes with no benefits is not a great success.
One thing I’ve observed with some critics of this business, particularly the more vocal and more engaged ones online, is they lack people skills.
The name-calling, personal attacks, and nastiness may be a reason (though there could be many) of why they did not suceed in the Amway business.
This business, whether you are selling a product or mentoring other IBOs/ABOs/distributors is about relationships.
And how successful you are at building, maintaining, and growing relationships, is important in not just this business, but all areas of one’s life.
I may not agree with everything my Upline, Downline, and Crossline, have to say, however there is something called respect.
And it is respect that seems to be greatly lacking when I see comments from some critics of this business.
Just an observation.
Wow, what is funny in this whole post, (making a big assumption their stories are true), is they are basing their “getting in” on the success of someone whom they do not know.
IBOFB has no direct association with these two people. They also claim there are those that they“…feel badly for current IBO’s who want to do it right, but have someone like you defending them.” My question to them is, how do they “do it right”?
So they know decent people that are building this business, yet won’t take them on their word, but rather some “unknown” who will not benefit if they (NJN, ME) join or not.
Makes perfect logic! Sounds fishy to me. Someone is scheming but I don’t think it is IBOFB.
John, two points.
It is possible to have an Emerald business so poorly structured and attended to that it doesn’t earn more than what you claim your Emerald was claiming. It does suggest that he/she was not paying attention to business, however.
Second, are you sure your “Emerald” was still an Emerald? There’s more than one instance of someone qualifying at a given level but not requalifying, however, continuing to use the title associated with that level.
Weed yourself out if you don’t think you can make it work and do something else more productive, in your estimation, with your time. However, I know from two new Emeralds in my upline’s group that they are making a whale of a lot more money (net) than you’re suggesting above, and based on Amway Global revenue, not tools.
I knew it!
These guys are not real prospects - they are disguised zealots!
So your name’s Dave, eh? And I’m Einstein!
This business can tolerate any amounts of healthy skepticism - but not this kind of foolishness!
NJN or MN or Jacket or whoever! I warn you to kindly keep your language clean. If not, then just know that I’m from India - a land of 20+ official languages!
A sentence from each of them would be enuff to send you to an asylum!
I think Amway Global needs to show the breakdown of IBOs’ success more effecctively than using the general term “active”, which they “legally” have to use. Most everyone knows the 1 in 270 stat includes people who merely signed up, with no further effort from that point. The numbers used in this post do a lot better job of showing what the “percentages” of success are if you apply yourself.
I agree, Amway should come up with something like:
1. Average income for all IBOs (Active/Non-Active included)
2. Avarage income for Active IBOs
3. Avarage income for IBOs who acheieved Bonus levels (100pv), all 12 months
4. Average income for IBOs who made sale all 12 months in a year
5. Average income for IBOs who registered ‘n’ number of new IBOs in width
Then may be percentages of IBO who are platinums in each category etc..that will surely show the result for the people who are working in this business and not the ones who have not. Also with technology advances, and as amway is managing everything online not, it should not be an issue to update these figures every year.
Right now the figures are from 3-8 years old. (Ref: http://www.thisbiznow.com/quixtar/ibo_statistics.html)
Back on August 9, 2007 I started a series about how to improve Amway. Unfortunately it got a little buried in events that happened later that day, and I never got back to it.
How to improve Amway & Quixtar - Part I
RS - when you’re definition of “active” is things like “attended a meeting” or “attempted a sale”, the figures can only be calculated through use of a survey, so it can’t all be handled from internal data.
Well thats what we want to clear out, the difference in earning between Barely active (or just registered and did nothing IBO) and Actually working IBOs. We all know that there is a huge difference in the success and income of IBOs who are just “active” and people who on consistent basis do some activity (Either Sale or Sponsor). The whole point is to show that, on an average an IBO made this, IBOs who made sale made this, IBOs who sponsored made this. So we can show the prospect that see if you will work, you will make money.
Out of all the category mentioned only the Active part is which may need survey, it is ok even if they just give average IBO earning (Total bonus payout/Total IBO numbers). For rest of the category, a query in there database will get the answer.
Just read that post, Excellent start. I know events that day were more shocking. But may be repost can initiate the debate again.
I just listened to a higher pin in our organization say this about critics.
Critics are like armchair quarterbacks that say, “what was that guy thinking?” Well they certainly weren’t thinking, “pass me another beer while I watch the replay for the 4th time.” They were looking for a receiver while at the same time avoiding 300 lb lineman trying to knock their head off.
Just like on the field, critics don’t have the guts to go out and do it themselves.
It takes courage, conviction, and guts to go out and build something. It doesn’t take any courage to write something negative on the internet.
rdknyvr,
john has been here before and always posts the same thing again and again.
Visioneer,
Maybe a great way to solve this is just for the platinum, emerald, etc. to just show his tax returns. It is just that simple. They stand in public and lead everyone to believe they are making so much money but they absolutely refuse to ever prove it. It would be so simple to just prove it. Why don’t they? Please don’t skirt the issue. Provide an honest answer. Why don’t they just prove it?
Well, when I get to Platinum, Emerald and above I wouldn’t want to let anyone see my tax return as it contains personal information in it. Secondly, even if I did it, you or anyone else who’s a critic would still say, “well, you probably doctored it”
Thirdly, are you saying that Amway doesn’t pay the bonuses in the Sales Incentive plan? If you hit the levels, then they pay the bonuses. I’ve seen checks from my upline Diamond for $10k, $20k, $30k, and higher from the corporation. It’s just that simple. If you hit the levels specified, then they pay the bonuses. I personally know of an Emerald in our organization who has qualified for the new $150k bonus.
Finally, john, no matter what I say, you still won’t believe it anyway. There is a big difference from a skeptic and a negative critic. A skeptic wants to find out the truth, a negative critic isn’t interested in the truth, he just wants to stay negative.
I have met few people who have seen $250K check sent by Amway to an EDC. Understand, just the Pin is not going to get you lots of money, you have to have the right structure too, and if you are hitting the pin and don’t know what the right structure should be, then its your problem, not Amway’s. They will pay only what you deserve. period.
Asking to see an upline’s tax return is like asking your boss if you can see his/her tax return. It’s nobody’s business.
This obsession that some critics have with seeing people’s tax returns is bizarre and illogical.
Wouldn’t copies of their checks from the Corp be better “proof” for their Amway income?
????
Why do some blog articles awaken the mischiefmakers like “n.j.n” and “m.n.”, while others don’t budge them from their slumber? Maybe it depends on how scholarly and profound the article is. Wisdom is correlated with stupid attacks in the response thread?
Visioneer,
When (if) you make platinum, you will have done what the others (just like my emerald) have done. You will have led so many to believe that you are successful tht you will be too ashamed to show your tax returns. Anyone who stands on stage & claims to make X amount of dollars in income and then refuses to ever prove it is someone who is all talk and no action. From the comments I have read on this article even the most ardent supporters of Amquix admit that the words plarinum or emerald are basically meaningless as they may be making money or scraping by. You answered my question exactly as I knew you would. It will be interesting to see how you feel if you discover that your upline has been deceiving you. Ofcourse, you will have to actually be open to the possibility of that being the truth instead of blindly following his stage performances.
john,
It is none of yours, or anyone’s business what I pay in property taxes, donate to charity, how many dependants I take care of, what I pay sub-contractors, what I pay an employee, what I claim in captial gains, what I claim in income that is not from the Amway Corporation, and all the other non-Amway-business-related information on my tax returns.
It is ridiculous to “demand” IBOs to share their tax returns as “proof” of Amway income.
If an person is so inclined, if the information from the Corporation regarding incomes is not sufficient, then they can ask to see copies of an IBO’s checks from Amway.
But to ask to see tax returns?
Illogical at best, and insulting at worst.
Is anyone else noticing any trollish behavior?
Visioneer,
I know you will make Platinum and beyond. You have a healthy First Circle and will be able to help others make money, because you are making money.
Keep up the great work and keep your eye on the goal!
Thanks Bridgett!! Same to you!!
To Not Joining Now:
The simple fact is you live in a Free Enterprise society and you have the right to build this business or not, period. The problem that most of the 3 million Ibo’s around the world have with critics like yourself is that you decline the business and spend the rest of the time backing up your decision with negative.
The Facts are Amway/Quixtar are over a 7 billion dollar debt free company and we are going to do 8 billion next year. We are #1 in North America for Health and beauty and the #1 affiliate partner for Circuit City and Barnes and Noble.
Let us know why you decided to get over it and then move on my friend. Since you have zero experience in this business your posts have no validation. Thanks.
WWDB Kevin
http://www.thetruthaboutamway.com/
Great logic and systematic approach to a very irrational question in the first place. Think and act like a business person and your chances of profitability are 100%. To address the opposition posts, I am a Silver Producer who has been very profitable for many years from a base of business that put together in my first couple years in the industry. My income has been very passive when considering the 5-10 hours per month I have been allocating over the past few years.
The issue to think about for those that do not continue their investigation after reading this post, if you are looking for a reason to not get started that is what you will find. BTW, in my experience the only thing these individuals ever start after passing on this opportunity is the TV, their XBOX, a bowling league or something else that does nothing to add value the ther future.
Freedom,
Your last sentence correlates with a story I heard once. When an IBO asked his friend when he could see the plan, the friend said “let me check my schedule”. Then he pulled out the TV Guide schedule!
WWDB Kevin,
According to Ron Puryear and Greg Duncan, Quixtar was going to be a $100 billion business 3 years ago. And yes, I can provide the source of their statements. So who is telling you how much this business is going to grow and are you sure you want to trust them? Also, success for Amway Quixtar owners (Devos,VanAndel) doesn’t translate to success for you or the millions of others who have been decieved by the likes of Puryear and Duncan.
Unfulfilled promises of growth in the dotcom world weren’t exactly the unique provence of a handful (note: handful out of thousands) of Quixtar leaders.
Are you claiming that if some Diamond out of thousands makes a prediction that later turns out to be wrong, that means the business somehow doesn’t work? Seems a bit of a silly approach to life to me.
I’d like to dispute your claim that it was just a handful of Quixtar leaders making this claim. I would argue that the majority of leaders were making this claim. You seem to ignore how communication gets transferred in these organizations… from the top down.
The majority of the INA leaders were all saying the same thing back in 1998 about Quixtar becoming a $100 billion dollar business. If the major leader of an AMO says it, you can bet all of the downline leaders will be duplicating it on stage, in team meetings, and Amvox.
Us critics who were last active decades ago were right there when Quixtar was being launched and can attest to these claims. If a minor AMO like INA would be promoting Quixtar as a $100 billion business, you can bet that the likes of Britt, Yager, Foley and other kingpins were saying the exact same thing.
The business has and does work for some people, but is it working for you? A 1 in 35 chance is still just 2.9%. I don’t know about you, but that’s still a pretty low percentage to me. What about the other 34 people? If they’re not Platinums, what are they? Some might be 1000s, 2500s or 4000s, but I bet a lot of them are scraping by at 100PV or even lower.
Obviously, I’m not going to stop anyone here from building the business, but I caution people in thinking that this business will build itself if you would only do the work. While that sounds nice on paper, it like the 6-4-2 circles, doesn’t always work out in reality.
Just my thoughts on your stats and percentages, IBOFB. As always, feel free to ignore if you don’t agree.
Amthrax
Being an IBO who would be a part of that $100 billion, I can say that I only have to look in the mirror and see one reason the company didn’t go to $100 billion.
I am not responsible for the other hundreds of thousands of IBOs in North America. But I am responsible for myself.
And I take responsibility for my part and my lack of effort for not making the company’s sales larger than what they are.
Argue it all you like - have you got any evidence to support this claim? Again though - so what? People all over were making ridiculous claims about dotcom businesses. I said at the time the claims about Quixtar were silly, and I said it about other businesses too. Somebody making silly claims has no bearing at all on whether the business model is any good or not.
You seem to have missed the fact that chance has nothing to do with it, and that we haven’t even yet got *close* to working out the statistics for people who do what is recommended.
it will build itself if you would only do the work …????? Huh? Does that make sense to anyone?
John,
We are going to be a 100 billion dollar business; the timeline for when that happens is irrelevant. I love that the leaders of World Wide and Quixtar/Amway Global are optimistic and looking towards the future, that is how you grow a business. Do you think Bill Gates ever predicted huge growth bigger than what Microsoft has become? Of course that is why he is a visionary, all great leaders are.
I am successful in the corporate world and I have yet to meet a self made millionaire who was skeptical, critical, and “realistic” in their future growth.
For you John to sit back from the outside and pick that statement apart has no merit to someone building the business. Get in the fight or go home and do nothing, that is your only 2 options. I choose to get in the fight and it sure has paid off.
Do what is recommended is exactly what the System leaders teach from stage. The 5 steps to success. The 9 CORE steps, etc., etc. The reality is you can do all of those steps and never get to Platinum, Emerald, or Diamond.
When I wrote, “this business will build itself if you would only do the work” that’s paraphrasing what the leaders were saying from stage.
Every time I’ve seen a survey done of people who have truthfully done our “core” steps every month for the previous 6 months, they’ve virtually all been silver and above. QED.
Very very very very very few people do “core”. Just yesterday I was listening to an MP3 of a new Double Diamond, he said of the people in the seminar where he was talking (already a highly self-selected group), he’d estimate from his experience about 5% were core the previous month - and that’s just for one month! Every time I’ve seen “core” recognized in a large meeting, the numbers have been much the same.
N21 “Vital Signs” and WWDB “parameter” statistics show that any given time about 10% of IBOs attend seminars. 5%*10%=0.5%. So only 1 in 200 do Core even for the one month!!!
Be honest - if only 1 in 200 do it for just one month, how many do you think do it every month for 2-5 years?
Amthrax,
I appreciate your criticisms as you are very reasonable to converse with. However, I have personally found that doing the work and following the mentorship of my upline provides results. I have not reached the Platinum level yet, but I have 10’s of thousand of dollars in the bank from my business, I have a nice profit at the end of every month, I’m almost debt free, and a have a large investment portfolio (although its been shrinking lately
). My wife works part-time and we’re looking for her to be free from her job next year.
Part of “doing the work” is learning from your mistakes and continuuing to work at getting better. This business is an art, based on a science. If you show 10 plans you should sponsor 2-4 people. However, if you have terrible people skills you probably won’t sponsor anyone. You’ll have to work on yourself to improve your sponsorship rate. So part of “doing the work” is getting advice and actually listening to it and then folowing through. I’ve seen too many people try it for a few months, then give up. I know they are selling themselves short. They put in too little effort, for to short a period of time before the give up on themselves.
That’s why reading is so important. I am a part of a large church that has grown fairly quickly in the past 10 years. Our Pastor is very well respected and he is an awesome leader. He reads an average of 3 books a month! He is at what some people would call a pinnacle of success, yet he still works at improving himself daily.
I am probably the most average of anyone who has ever built this business. I am not smarter than most people, I am not the “motivational speaker”, I am not a gifted communicator, I wasn’t born with a high leadership quotient.
But, I am very happy I decided to follow the advice of my upline and kept working at my business!
IBOFB, I agree with you, that success here or anywhere else has absolutely nothing to do with “chance,” “luck,” or “odds.” As you, WWDBKevin, Visioneer, and others point out, it does come down to choosing to be successful and doing the required work — in any activity, not just a direct sales business such as ours.
The question that has not been effectively addressed by any side, however, is why so few who register a direct sales business — and this is true, by the way, for many direct sales businesses, not just Amway Global — continue on to put in the required consistent effort to achieve the level of cashflow they deem to be “success” for their purposes, whether at Platinum or higher, or at some net cashflow positive sub-platinum level.
This is still an area that needs to be explored and “transformed” and it won’t be with words on a blog, but by builders who set out to understand the problem and define an approach and training that will facilitate a shift in individual business’s growth and success. That is a “problem/opportunity” in our marketplace waiting to be solved.
I agree, but playing the devil’s advocate, the question arises as to whether this is an inherent part of human nature, and we can’t change it, or it is something to do with techniques/approaches/strategies, and we can improve it.
Probably worth starting a thread on AmwayTalk to discuss this.
John,
Go ahead and post the following:
Full Name
Mailing Address
Birth Date
Social Security #
Mothers Maiden Name
And I’ll send you a copy of my Tax Returns for the past 6 years along with a copy of the $20,000 achievers check due to arrive in 11 days. (Not that I’m counting)
Sounds pretty silly doesn’t it???
rdknyvr, great question. And certainly could have its own blog site to answer it.
But to over simplify it. I’ve always seen this industry as being simple, not necessarily easy. If you want more of the general public to “stick with it”, you’re gonna have to make it easier.
Than the question would be, can you make it TOO easy. I think so. One of the greatest things I’ve seen with this business is far beyond the financial rewards, but rather, who you become through the process. And if the process is too easy, you elimante some of the need for personal growth and development in order to be successful.
Thankfully, there are alot of sharper minds than me working behind the scenes with the transformation that understand this balance and have a passion for what this business is and can be in the future.
Thanks TWS, I was thinking, in part, more along the lines of being more careful, and do more screening of who we end up sponsoring. Some people will never know if they have or can develop the motivation and vision to build their own business until they try. Others could never do it in a light year’s worth of Sundays, but they are looking for an “easy” way to get a business/money (ie. no effort) and they should be screened out at the beginning. They are often the ones who end up with the cockroach/critic stories… per some above… shine a bit of light on them and they scurry away.
However, I’m not entirely content to leave it to the so-called “sharper minds” working behind the scenes, some of whom still may have an unexamined conflict of interest regarding which business is more important to them… Amway Global or a training system. One still sees a lot of the old assumptions not being re-examined… the old saying, ‘if you keep on doing what you’ve always done but expecting different results’ is the definition of ___. Same with thinking… keep on thinking, or failing to innovate in your thinking even around business building approaches, and there is the risk of building the old flaws into the new ‘transformed’ business… maybe the “new wine in old wineskins” analogy fits.
If you’re worried about “training systems” then I think you’re jumping too far ahead. While the success rate of people who buy BSM (as opposed to put it in action) may not be that great, it’s way way way way better than the success rate of people who never buy BSM.
1. Why do most people who join never place an order?
2. Why do most people who join never participate in any training, even free stuff?
then you can get to -
3. Why do most people who participate in training/purchase BSM never put it into sustained action?
4. Why do most people who put the training/BSM into sustained action never sustain it for long enough to reach higher levels?
rdknyvr,
I think your answer would be the same reason why people join health clubs, pay their monthly membership, and never or rarely show up.
Or, they do show up, but their work out is so lame, that they might as well go sit in a park, enjoy the fresh air, and eat a doughnut.
The IDEA of being in shape is far more appealing than the reality and the WORK it would take to be in shape.
Yes, but the REAL question is then - what can be done to improve your “hit” ratio?
In my opinion we have a very effective business system, but there’s still room to make it more efficient.
There are for examples things you can do to increase “compliance” on things like gym attendance and diet programs. How can we increase “compliance” (Note to critics: It’s a research term, nothing nefarious meant by it) with Amway/system programs?
In my opinion, as Jeffrey pointed out earlier, a person can be involved in all the bells and whistles and environment of the business but aren’t actually doing the necessary work to move their business forward.
And then the biz becomes a spectator sport for many IBOs/ABOs (and critics, as well). They are in the stadium, but not on the field.
People get caught up in watching the “show”, rather than performing.
For some people, that is all they want. They just like being around it all, but not really interested in performing.
I appreciate the availability of all the resources. I just think IF we are looking to make money with the Amway Opportunity, we have to know when something goes from being a resource to being a distraction. And that’s different for different people. This is not a one-size-fits-all endeavor.
So I believe IF we want to make money, it’s to evaluate when/if a resource goes from helping us build our business, to allowing us to deceive ourselves about just how much true effort we are putting forth.
We all need to make sure we keep the main thing, the main thing.
Way to be visioneering!!!!AS long as I’ve been in the business I’ve seen that the people who put in correct effort in the business have always got a result. A lot of people stay consistent and move to the higher levels and those who don’t stay where they are or fall back. It is like anything else, if you want success, you need to learn what to do and apply it properly..
This has been a fun post, with a lot of great opinions. Here is my two bits: my Awesome upline teaches me that the 1st six months of consistent & persistent effort may yield nothing. We may not see ANY growth for the first while, but that 7th month goes “boom.” The Slight Edge (Jeff Olsen, author) teaches this very effectively–if one hasn’t heard of or read this book, I highly recommend it. It is the very tangible, daily things we are doing that will eventually show the results (ie. core, which btw have ten steps). We must soe before we reap (sp?) and I do know this: that most people get excited when they see this biz model, show all their friends & family and none of them “get in,” so they say it doesn’t work & they quit. They haven’t even had the fortitude to move from the JV team to the Varsity team, and it is sad; but it is human nature. It is too bad that those who we are the closest too, we listen to & believe the most–where they’d rather one not succeed, or move onto better themselves, so as to not make themselves feel so bad about themselves (if that makes sense.) I cherish my time with those in this business who’ve had success, to learn from them and gain the strength and knowledge I need to follow in their footsteps. It’s much better time & money spent than hearing all my “broke, derilect (sp) neighbors and friends talk about their financial geniuses over nascar, beer, barbeques and block parties!
Thanks for all of your above posts..
ibofightback where do you live?
and what do you do for a living, other then being an IBO?
These days I live in Europe. I have a number of different businesses.
the business does work, you just have to get coached by people who have created an income and just do what they have done. It’s funny that the people who post complaining are the one’s that quit, it’s a choice if you succeed or not in this program.
That right there is hard for people to grasp, it’s not that the business doesn’t work, you just didn’t work it.
fin
I’ve been following this website for quite some time and I believe that Amway does work. I have heard about Amway since I was young, and married a man who was a member for almost 10 years, because he believed in the products (his first wife died of cancer and he was looking for good quality vitamins) and as a businessman, he also saw the opportunity and over the years, he had built a steadily growing network (retention rate 80%) and also, the income is inheritable (my 3 stepsons and their generations to come will benefit from this gift of perpetual income).
I married him last year and refused to have anythng to do with Amway as I didn’t like direct selling or mlm and never believed that I could do it, but after visiting Vietnam, and seeing the business opportunity and how fair this business, equal opportunity regardless of whether you are young or poor, old or rich…and in Malaysia where I come from, we have many Diamonds, some of whom qualified at 26 years old and now I reside in Brunei…small population of 391,000 inclusive of foreigners. Despite this size, our business is growing faster than ever, despite the recession.
Most importantly, having beginning to be active in this business since March 2008, I have myself personally put in about 60 people, and seen more than half making some income…which helps cover some of their vitamins cost and some even make extra income.
One of my friends just lost his job last month due to the recession, and having joined our network 5 months ago, he has a small sum of Amway income every month since the last 3 months. It may not be huge income…yet…but it is money chasing after you, especially when you are down and broke and don’t have a job.
We believe that Amway can help change some peoples’ lives, if only they try to do something about the opportunity. Yet, sadly, most sit still, do nothing and complain that Amway is a scam etc when they DIDN’T EVEN TRY. It’s just like going to university. If you don’t study, you may fail. In any business or in life, if you don’t work hard or put in effort, how can we expect results?
With Amway, my family enjoys steady income, great health (we are 100% users), peace of mind, gained new friends and also, more time to share with our loved ones.
This business works. My upline joined at 29 years old and retired at 31 years old. For the last 12 years, he has never worked (and he used to be a medical doctor in hospital - long hours…what good is earning tons of money when you don’t have the time to spend it…like in a conventional job?). He tells us….one of the most important benefits of this business…is that now, he has plenty of time to spend with his family. He saw his kids through delivery, goes on holidays whenever he likes (no need to wait for public holidays and peak seasons), and has since he first turned Emerald 12 years ago, been on every Amway holiday…5-star all the way.
This is my opinion, and I will continue to build Amway and help others (those who believe that they want to do something with their lives and future) to help themselves. With Amway, I have also gained self-esteem and more confidence in myself.
IBO Fight Back,
This is a very well written article. I got bored reading through the first half of comments, but your article was a good read. Having advanced degrees in the Sciences, logic comes very easy to me, and there is nothing wrong with your logic, however i see no logic in the arguments. The methodology was fine.
Your critics call your article a long explanation, but have clearly never seen what “long” is… Try having to prove an experiment worked, the 3,000th time.
-UCLA expose