Class action against Amway Canada thrown out

Well, “thrown out” is probably not a technically correct legal term, but the result is the same. Back in 2009 a pair of disgruntled IBOs, husband and wife Kerry Murphy and Cheryl Rhodes, of Cloverdale, British Columbia, filed a class action lawsuit against Amway Canada. This  of course made news with the anti-Amway brigade, but funnily enough some other news didn’t – way back in November of last year, the Court sided with Amway and said their complaint should go through Amway’s arbitration system.

I should clarify – not their complaint. In what has to be one of the least successful attempts at a class action ever, Murphy and Rhodes launched this lawsuit and promoted their class action through press releases and websites. The result? Well, in a class action, one of the tasks of the Judge is to determine if there is a sufficiently large group of people with the same grievance. In May 2011, his wife Cheryl Rhodes curiously withdrew from the class action. So we’re down to one, and in the judgement, the Judge had this to say –

the plaintiff has only provided evidence of one claim – his own for the amount of $15,000. …. Absent any convincing evidence of multiple claims or multiple defendants, the issue of the reasonableness of a partial stay is simply not triggered.

So it became his complaint. Just Kerry Murphy. No Cheryl Rhodes, and nobody else stood up to offer further claims. It gets even worse for Mr Murphy-

THIS COURT ORDERS that the defendant’s Motion to Stay and to Compel Arbitration is allowed. Costs shall be awarded to the defendant.

It seems to me highly likely that the defendants (Amway) costs for a case like this are going to far, far exceed the $15000 Murphy claimed he lost doing Amway during his four times as an IBO. I notice looking through the court records that  Robert FitzPatrick provided an affidavit in support of Murphy and Rhodes. I have little doubt that anti-MLM zealots like FitzPatrick encouraged this action.

FitzPatrick and his ilk are causing real financial damage to people by leading them astray with their falsehoods and anti-mlm zealotry.

Murphy has appealed the case. I feel sorry for him.

84 thoughts on “Class action against Amway Canada thrown out”

  1. So your telling me there have been 100’s of 1000’s of people who have joined either Amway, or WWDB and there are only 15 Diamonds and above in WWDB? Seems like shitty odds to me.

    1. There’s over 100 Diamond IBOS associated with Amway/WWDB. Hundreds that we don’t know of with WWG, and without WWG that are just in Amway.

  2. I was with amway and i will say the products do work like the sa8 laundry soap was great. During this time they had a contest on who could sell and have the most money. I did win i worked very hard for 2 weeks had alot of products sold and the trip i was to get was were i was living at the time. a tour through science north and a trip on the cortina boat with a wonderful meal and to rub elbows will all the higher ups….i was so excited i was to get a reward pin for all my hard work….the day came where my uplinks told me and showed me the tickets i was to get….the sad thing is that my uplinks who were ibo’s took the tickets and went on the trip and told ppl that i couldn’t make it and they would except on my behalf….i cryed when they did this to me and they even had the nerve to keep the pin….well guess what….they were so excited that they had a winner on there hands who could sell like they never saw before…..yea i went to all the programs and even went to cleveland ohio at the center it was great…..but when they did this i decided to hang my hat…i gave them back all the books and tapes and everything including a lovely card that said i wish them the best of luck….i quit….since that day i will never ever gone another marketing level program or anything close to it……..not saying amway is bad just some of the people who are in it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  3. I just read comments of “Dean’s Friend” up to this point. “Dean’s Friend,” you act like someone is forcing you to build an Amway business. It’s okay. You do your thing, let Dean do his thing. I’m not understanding what all the upset is about.

    1. Thank you for that that last comment…..
      honestly I know everyones emails that posted.
      Im not kidding thank you for your sham of a blogg. Good luck to all of you. Specially to the last blogger.

    2. Do anyone of the diamonds own there house ?
      Or is renting part of the duplication process?
      That is my problem thats my biggest problem.
      I can rent a nice house tmrw and pretend.
      can anyone please explain this ? Honestly

      1. If you truly listen, there is no black and white way to build your business. No right and wrong way, only an understanding of why “you” would do something with the help of your mentor. Nobody forces anything but if you want results you have to understand the mindset. The Whalens own their house after being in the proccess of home ownership of 3 years..in turn they paid 1.2million and paid it off in 3 years. Try that in a job.

    3. Everything turns on this issue this friend of mine is renting his house not because of his financial position but because Amway is telling him to! Why? Forget about my rantings its all a side issues the main thing is this!

        1. its more of a question then a statement.
          The montra if its better to rent then buy is something that iv even heard leaders from the state’s say at conferences. Bullshit exactly! I concur.

          1. The responsible thing might be to pay cash for all purchases. If you want a “nice” home, have it custom built. It will be exactly what you want. Paying cash eliminates a mortgage. Having debt to a credit card company or other lenders doesn’t make good economic sense. It take discipline to practice delayed gratification. For instance, one might choose to drive an old car they can afford until they can pay cash for the car of their dreams. Having said that, most people “want it now!” Dean is a very disciplined person, don’t you think?

          2. Might be is a key phrase. Sometimes it makes sense to borrow money, other times it doesn’t. All depends on an individual’s circumstances and what they’re trying to achieve.

          3. Of course but you plane long enough for the future and you let life pass you by. Having a nice car and a nice house isn’t the same when your 50 as it is when your 24

          4. Useing other people’s money to finance a deal like a home is a vary smart choice in a city like Edmonton. House’s are selling for triple what they where only 10 years ago.

          5. Taking out a loan to help expand a traditional business makes sound business sense. Buying thing on credit to give the impression of success is irresponsible and, I would say, dishonest. Dean appears to be very honest. If his “friend” would ask him an honest question, I am sure Dean would give him an honest answer. After all, what are friends for?

          6. Dean and Marci can pay cash for those thing now. They did the work. Lots of it. The agent that can sell them an existing home will make a nice profit, won’t he/she? If they build and pay cash they save all those fees and won’t have to pay interest on a mortgage, will they? Smart move in my book.

            Some want to play now and pay later. The problem with that is, they keep paying and paying. What is smarter is to put in the effort now and enjoy the benefits in the future. Delayed gratification. A few will. Most won’t. That’s life. Makes no difference if you have a job or own a business. Makes no difference if it is what you call a “real business” or a business like the one Dean has. Do a little, make a little. Do a lot, make a lot. Do nothing make nothing. That is fair, isn’t it? Hard work pays off. It did for Dean and Marci, didn’t it?

          7. Plan your work and then work your plan. Success at anything takes work; hard, consistent work. Just thinking about work and not doing the work doesn’t get one any place fast. Winners never quit and quitters never win. A truism if I ever heard one. I think Dean would advise, “Work now and play later!” Isn’t that the example he and Marci set?

      1. Im sure dean whalen is very much capable of deciding if he wants to buy or rent a house. You dont build founders diamond business without strong leadership skills. Dont worry about dean.

  4. Please explain why dean whalen doesn’t own his house? And please explain the 40 dollars a month for wwdb when there are countless services that offer you all and more in terms of business to business conference calling.

    1. I had to google who Dean Whalen was. Could you explain the relevance of your question and why he should “own his house”? Do you mean he is renting? Or he has a mortgage? Re the second question I’m guessing you’re talking about Communikate, which is US$36.95/mth? I’m trying to find a service that offers the same kind of features without much luck, so it’s hard to do a price comparison. Nothing like it exists in our market and I’ve been looking for a voicemail system that allows group voicemails and forwarding etc and not been able to find anything – so I’m more than open to your suggestions!

      1. Amway works because the numbers work.
        the bussiness model works.
        But its not a real business!.
        It is vary cult like.
        I dont want to sell their products.
        Its a business you own but you cant run it the way you want. You cant have your own ideas,
        You cant make your own mark ups, you cant even bring in your own products.
        Your the middle man of the middle man of the middle man.
        Dean Whalen is a diamond. He doesn’t own his own house, he rents why? He makes 1.2 mill a year and he has built a fantastic business but his not a business man. Amway tell him to jump and he saids how high. Thats the way it works. He can never truly retire. He cant walk away his brain washed. He lives in Edmonton alberta canada one of the richest city’s in north America.
        real estate here is and has gone up the average house is selling for 450g he lives and rents a house in st alberta alberta the average house is 700g. The real reason he doesn’t own his house is because his business over night could fall apart. “Thats part of his mentoring.”
        fuck mentoring he started this business to make money. He needa a business consultant. Not thousands of people that eat off of his every word about having a dream and coming from anthing. Im not saying its not true what im saying is at this point he should be looking into more serious investments but his not business he blind. His not properly educated. I just want to see that guy reach his real full potential.
        Making a mill two is vary good but its nothing.

        1. I have no idea about Dean Whalen’s financial dealings, you’d have to ask him. Sometime’s renting is a sensible thing to do, either financially or because of other goals you have. From what I’ve just read they’re fairly new Diamonds, so it’s quite possible, probable even, that they’re focusing on strengthening their business before making large financial commitments. Any business, not just Amway businesses, can fall apart if you don’t build it with sustainability in mind.

          Regarding your other comments, of course you can make your own markups. Most people do. Regarding “bringing in your own products”, you can’t do that in many business operations, such as franchising or as an independent agent. You contractually give up some rights in exchange for others. That’s normal business. I’ve got zero doubt that the Canadian Revenue Agency considers the Whalen’s to have a “real business”, and that it has to follow “real business” laws.

          1. Your wrong about most franchises not giving you an option in contractual rights In regards with bringing your own product’s in. Have you studied business have you ever had your own real franchise? No the answer is no. You can bring your own product’s in and have your own mark up, a proper mark up not 17 percent but 200 percent. I dont want to buy a product for 62 and sell it for 78 bucks that stupid. And pay for shipping on top. Im not confused and im not your friend, and I dont need to “talk” to my upline.
            I want to sell my own products. business is about being profitable I want to implement my own idea’s and my own “partner stores” thats where the real money is.

          2. Yes “dean’s friend”, I owned a franchise when I was 21. I’ve also been involved in consulting to help start a new franchise. And no, in most franchise’s you absolutely cannot “bring your own products” with own markup etc. Sorry, but you appear not to know what you are talking about. If you want to sell your own products and implement your own ideas, great go for it. Best of luck to you.

          3. Please tell me what franchise your parents purchased for you at the age of 21.
            I appear to not no what im talking about ?
            Every franchise is different not every location in every region does business the same way. Corporate stores dont and franchises dont.
            You cant change the whole business model but you can by region by and by store have your own product’s and mark ups.

          4. My parents didn’t purchase a franchise for me. I and two partners took over a PediCab franchise after the operator was going to close it down. We managed to negotiate to take it over for no upfront fees as the franchisor wanted to keep it running – and get monthly fees from us.

      2. And not being able to find anything like Communikate! is bullshit your telling me there’s no service out there that does conference calling
        your telling me there’s nothing because you looked. ? wwbd world wide group is just one sect of amway have you herd of true north?
        There main business isn’t the products its that 36.50 times a few million ibos plus the products plus the mark up plus the not so free events. With true north its cds they dont have wwdb.
        look im not saying Amway doesn’t work im saying its not real business. its a mlm take it for what it is its a job. ! Your buying a job.
        Maybe your not helping people when you pitch them the amway business or any mlm company
        Maybe your killing a dream and killing small business growth in your country. ?
        People that do Amway 99 percent of them wont make it in amway those are the same people that wont make it in real business. If you have a million people selling the same products of course your going to have people make some good money but why can’t it be your product ?
        From start to finish.

        1. From what I understand Communikate does a lot more than just conference calling. Where I am we have no product available like Communikate and I’ve been unable to find something that offers group voicemail capabilities. Ideally with video conferencing, document sharing, whiteboard sharing, mobile apps etc. Again, if you know of one, I’d appreciate the referral.
          As for “killing small business growth” I’m currently actively involved in two startups. I’m also actively involved in building an Amway business. Amway isn’t something you have to do instead of pursuing other dreams. Some people choose to focus all their energies in to Amway, others, like me, choose to pursue other interests as well. We can, because contrary to your opinion, it is our own business – we control when we work, how much we work, and who we work with.

          1. Mlm’s are a full time job if you think building an Amway business is easy or that you can be successful doing it part time your lieing to yourself. People move everything around in there lives just to do Amway. And there are two diamonds currently living in Edmonton one fulls under true north and the other fulls under wwd. Thats 10,000 ibos the market is saturated.

          2. “Dena’s friend”, I’m curious, how much experience building an Amway business do you have? I built a profitable Amway business in Australia while having a full-time job, and starting another company, and coaching sport 7 days a week. I can assure you building Amway as not a “full time job”. No, it wasn’t easy – nobody said it was – but I absolutely successfully did it part time. Now I’m doing it again, part-time, while involved in two startups, and have moved from scratch to more than half way about the volume bonus scale in less than 4 months. You simply have no idea what you are talking about.

          3. “I simply dont know what im talking about”? What level in amway are you ? Are you even a platinum?
            Im tired of friends and family making 2-3grand a month and spending back on Amway products and calling it profit. I cant tell you my experience in Amway because it could give away my identity away.

          4. “Dean’s friend”, you gave your email address with your comment registration. I run this site, so I have access to that and know who you are. I built the business to close to Platinum back in Australia years ago, then had some challenges in my more traditional company, ended up moving countries and spent 15 years travelling and pursuing other goals. I started building seriously again a few months ago and amlast month was equivalent to just below the 18% level on the Amway US scale (I’m in Europe).

            One of the things I did during that 15 years travelling and pursuing other goals was thoroughly researching the Amway business, an multilevel marketing in general. So I’ve seen all the myths you’re sprouting before. You really don’t know what you’re talking about. Why don’t you ask Dean these questions?

          5. Your an Amway guy running an Amway blog ?
            And you know my email? Privacy is an issue!

      3. And dont tell me your building an asset dont tell me the system is in place with mentors that help you build your business for a reason.
        I want a real business answer.
        Its simple.

        1. Friend, you sound angry and confused. You should counsel with your upline. I am not your upline but I will share the following with you.

          Any journey starts with the first step. First one must decide where it is they want to go. It always starts from where you find yourself, now. The journey to gain the knowledge you seek will take time. We all start our journeys with some skills, whether we recognize that fact or not. Not everybody has the skills to be in business for themselves. Skills can be learned. Desire cannot.
          Desire come from within. Each of us must discover the “why” that will energize us to action.

          Fear is the mind killer. It will paralyze you to inaction.

          The key to success is through Knowledge and personal growth. That, and action. Do it now!

          It takes character of will to succeed. For instance, many have aspired to be a USN SEAL. Most find a reason to give up and quit. Those that earned the trident found it was mind over matter. They toughed it out. SEAL Team Six is the best of the best. Very few SEALs have what it takes to become a member. But, they try! Read about them to find out what it takes.

          Let me pass on what Walter Bass had to say. (If it wasn’t for him, there would probably be no Amway today. He joined in 1950, but didn’t achieve Emerald until 1986.) “…I was unwilling to pay the price, I just didn’t achieve it [Emerald].” He advises, “Set a short-term and a long-term goal. Make your goals mean something, keep working towards them, and don’t let anything interfere. Keep your eye on them and be willing to pay the price.”

          Walter sponsored Crown, Bernice Hansen. When she was 99 years old she shared her philosophy.

          “Encourage people to think outside the box. The ‘box’ is so limiting. Who wants to be average”
          Create goals that that are bigger than what might feel natural for you.”
          Sell people on the products first, the best IBOs come from being happy customers.”

          Bernice sponsored Crown, Joe Victor. He sponsored his son, also a Crown. Jody says, “Change is inevitable, growth is optional. When we begin to think outside the box, we see the potential of our business. This is where the next generation of successful business people will come from.”

          Friend, will you be part of that “next generation”?

        2. Why wouldn’t I say you’re building an asset? Of course you are, as proven not least by the fact Amway businesses have sold for 7 figures. What “real business answer” are you looking for?

          1. Ok fine then by the same logic im an asset for the Canadian income tax system when I work. I cant take out a loan against it nore can I sell it. I cant merge or even take out loans against to expand. Im a robot being told what to do how to do it, when to do it, what to buy, ext.

          2. Again you’re just displaying ignorance. Amway businesses can and do get bought and sold and merged and borrowed against. And apart from the very few contractual obligations I agreed to Amway has never “ordered” me what to do, when to do it, what to buy etc. I get advice from my team members, but I make my own decisions. Again, you really need to do some more research because you clearly have no actual idea what is involved in running an Amway business. Since you claim to be Dean’s friend, I suggest perhaps you ask him?

          3. Read the amway contract. When you say you get advice from your team members and your not being told what to do like a robot you are thats exactly what your doing. But you call it mentoring you call it coaching. And you need to reread what i wrote amway works for about less then one percent of amway for the 99 percent it wont work itl never work because people are stupid but you need the 99 percent to believe itl work in order for that one percent to go around in events like family reunion and tell people things like yes you can you can do it I did it because you cant and you wont.
            There’s a reason why there is a disclaimer on the first page of amway that saids on average ibos only make 280 dollars a year. Keep fighting that good fight. Please stop making the real business world look like its the worst thing in the world.

          4. “Dean’s friend”, you really should spend a lot more time reading and a lot less writing. You claim I’m making “the real business world look like its the worst thing in the world” yet I’ve already told you I’m currently involved in two separate startups and have run other businesses as well. You could start by reading other posts on this website about myths like “99% lose” and what the average income data mean.

          5. Why did you start this site ? You started this site because there was a need to fight back as an ibo
            Because? …. People are pissed off at Amway.

          6. Given the size of Amway there are remarkably few people pissed off at Amway. Remarkably few. Unfortunately some of them are obsessive types and like to write multiple blogs and spam the internet with anti-amway commentary. Some of it is based on legitimately poor experiences, some of it is outright false. The problem with the “legitimately poor experiences” is they are apparently clueless as to how big Amway is, and believe their experience with one small corner of one small part of Amway’s millions of Independent business owners is representative of the whole. They do things like you are doing here – you’re claiming my experience didn’t exist. That my experience with Amway is wrong. That I must be a liar.

            I’m not. Amway’s just way way way bigger and more diversified than you imagine.

          7. Why cant you just ignore them? If Amways so big then who cares what people think, people are stupid anyway. Why waste your time blogging about it?

          8. As Howard says, people aren’t stupid. All of are however ignorant of most things. I was ignorant about Amway until I spent some time researching it – and I’d even been an IBO before! By blogging about Amway people have more information available and have a choice – active ignorance, choosing to ignore the facts in lieu of opinions, or educated decision making.

            What do you choose, “dean’s friend”?

          9. Insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different results. Stupidity is believing in something that isn’t real. Your quoting a handicap fictional character on a blogg and pretending that is a proper business response.
            your level of comprehension is the same as forest Gump. Your being tied to a business model emotionaly. Thats what Amway is really doing. And your believe anything because the emotion is to strong the numbers dont have to make sense. But in business thats the only point
            the numbers.

          10. Your not giving me numbers your not giving me facts. Amway isnt a publicly traded company.
            it has its own product’s but the mark up for the average ibo is nothing. You know what would make this blog amazing if diamonds started posting there income to the masses. Like a real brake down. No here say, no this is to rude a comment to even consider doing. You have family reunions, and chatter of wealth you have promises of wealth. The only reason the public and the masses have a problem with amway is because of the numbers. Amway doesn’t have to approve this but let diamonds the top of amway the ceos of the mlm business world post there income brake down. Please. And then there will be no debate. “Im about that life style” because the Amway leadership waves in front of my face like a carrot.

          11. Yet another post that proves you need to spend more time reading than writing. There are income statistics regularly posted on this website (as well as Amway of course). Go read them.

          12. Why can’t you just tell me the answer instead of saying go Fitch the answer. Its not on here its not any site. To post false earnings would be illegal. They post a 280 dollar discrepancy average on the vary first page in vary small fine print. If your tired of my comments or you still think I dont know what im talking about I work with investment bankers, real estate developers, corporate finance guys and chartered accountants. Amway is famous for getting people to get hooked on the emotion of success rather then actually looking at the numbers.
            If you believe you can achieve forget about the numbers. No company is perfect no corporation
            is perfect but what is Amway? Having your own business means Amway isnt fully responsible for your actions while at the same time it sells its products and gives you a small kick back. Its the
            Perfect mix. Corporate Amway is eating up allmost all of the profits. The real winner here isn’t rhe ibo its corporate.

          13. I started this blog so I don’t have to repeat myself. There’s a tag cloud down the right hand side. One of the tags is average income. It reports on Amway published statistics on income. You could try clicking on it.

            Of course, this data is also presented on the Amway website, as well as in the Amway Business Opportunity Brochure, which is required to be shown to you when you join, and which you are required to show others. You claim to have been to multiple WWDB conferences, which means you are or have been an IBO, which means you’re aware of the BOB. Your story is not adding up. Which parts are you making up?

          14. Try to sell your Amway business on ebay
            Lol this is op to anyone is what happens.

          15. There is a process to sell an Amway business, just as there is if you want to sell an existing franchise. You won’t find a McDonald’s for sale on ebay either. But what is it you are claiming? That you can’t sell an Amway business? Or that you can’t sell one on ebay?

          16. Sorry good question. Yes the process isn’t anything like selling a McDonald’s not even close. For someone to buy an Amway business they would have to first have to “understand” the Amway operating system and understand the value and how everything works. But that would completely be complex because the chances of an outsider buying would be vary small. The buyer of this Amway business would have to and most likely be a part of Amway already. With McDonald’s the chances of owning your own McDonald’s when your the cashier isn’t realistic but lets say it happens all the sales figures and all the accounting would be looked at, The real numbers the real profits the profits 85 percent goes to the franchisee not corporate. With Amway its nothing close to that. Its almost the exact opposite. And why would anyone want to sell a successful Amway business? Its the nature of the beast mlm’s

          17. And again, you claim to have been to multiple conferences, yet aren’t aware of things like Rule 6.8, which explain exactly your contractual obligations around selling of an Amway business. Your story isn’t adding up.

          18. Dean’s “friend”, (Why do you call yourself that?)

            It sounds like you want a traditional business. Why don’t you try it? But first, do an inventory. Ask yourself, ‘What skills do I possess that will help make me successful?’ Then, ask yourself, ‘What additional skills will I need to develop?’

            If your upline truly cares about you, they will be more than willing to help. You will never know unless you ask. No, they are not going to lend you the start-up money. They should, however, offer you sound advice.

            The very first thing you need to do is to discover your own personal “why”. Without that knowledge you are doomed to quit when the going gets rough. (If the dream is big enough, the facts don’t count.)

            Are you willing to listen and learn? Are you teachable? Will you read the books they suggest? Do you need to improve your people skills? Are you well disciplined? Do you finish what you start? Are you a person of action? Why do you really want what you say you want and how will you go about getting it? You need to ask yourself these questions.

            Be honest with yourself. What is your personal “why?” ‘I want money! Lots and lots of money!’ is not the correct answer to ‘Why?’

          19. Howard, I don’t think “dean’s friend” is an IBO. My guess is Dean showed him the Amway business once and he laughed at him, and now Dean is a Diamond and “dean’s friend” is desperately trying to justify to himself why he said no.

            Of course, what he should do is congratulate Dean on his success, and ask him if he could help him do the same.

            Somehow I doubt he will though.

          20. No not at all dean didn’t show me the business once a long time ago and thats it. Your not sucking me into explaining who I am. I personaly known dean his a great guy his smart funny his a leader a real leader he could have been playing the game he loves for 300grand a year in Europe.
            but instead he took a chance on Amway and it payed off im vary happy for dean. Dean or who i am isnt the main vocal point here its amway.
            Your replys are all on the defensive im not attacking you or dean im trying to show you something about a company thats to big to fail.
            like walmart and just like walmart unions are not allowed why dont the core of the business leave more room for profit.

          21. I dont need start up “money” I could lend you start up money, but you would never take the jump please stop making traditional business sound evil! No billionaire in the world got to where they are by means of an mlm! 0!
            Yes some billionaires buy mlm’s as part of their
            portfolio but never not once has it been the single start. You dont go from amway to doing merger and acquisitions you go from small business to expansion and you build and build and you give it everything you have and you keep going.

          22. Dean’s friend is full of assumptions, isn’t he? We try to help him and he rejects our friendship. Now he is afraid that his upline will discover him on this site. Sad! Honesty is the best policy. The mind is the builder. Fear is the mind killer.

          23. Yes… your right your brilliant you got me. im here
            making assumptions.
            I like how you dont really answer any of my questions.
            im afraid of nothing.
            I just Don’t want to make dean look bad. Because he has worked vary hard to get where he is. How much money have you made with amway? How much do you make a month with amway. Your never going to answer the main question its a business tell me how much your making. Ibos dodge this question like the plague.

          24. I like how you really haven’t asked any questions – you’ve just made lots of false accusations. The only questions you asked up until now was why doesn’t Dean Whalen own his house, which is a pretty dumb question to be asking a bunch of people on a blog, don’t you think?

          25. I can make and become a millionaire from any business thats the real heart of an entrepreneur.
            Its not a cookie cutter cult infusion called Amway.

          26. Oh right you’re “not attacking me”, or Dean, just claiming we’re part of some fake business that’s actually a cult.

            Good grief.

            Go become a millionare with your other businesses. Been there done that (and lost it all). Doing it again, with both Amway and other businesses. Well, hopefully not doing the “lost it all” part again! 🙂 Seriously though, best of luck in whatever you choose to do. Amway’s not what you think – not even close – but it’s not for everyone, and that’s just fine.

          27. People may be ignorant of facts but they are not stupid. Stupid is a behavior. When you know the right thing to do and then choose to do something different, then you are acting stupid. As Forest Gump would say, “Stupid is as stupid does.” Deans “friend” is acting stupid. And, he is ignorant of the fact.

        3. You were asking ibofightback questions, not me.

          We all admire Dean. He is a great role model! Only you can make him look bad. (Why go public and ask why he doesn’t own his own home instead of privately asking him?) How do you think what you write is coming across to the readers of this site? That is your real concern, isn’t it? You’d be embarrassed if the readers on Dean’s team knew it was you. Correct?

          It is downright rude to ask people how much they make. As far as those in the Amway business go, different strokes for different folks. How much any of us are making has no bearing on how much anybody else can make. I doubt any answer would truly satisfy you.

          Many of us find storytelling a useful tool. Bernice Hansen got in five month after her sponsor, Walter Bass, got in. She went on to achieve Crown. He was satisfied with being an Emerald. They both emphasised retailing. Others have emphasised recruiting. Different business models. Same Amway plan and products. They stayed active until their deaths. Many of the “recruiters” have long since quit or “retired”. Bernice and Walter knew their ‘why’. It was to help people get what they wanted; what ever that was. They were caring, generous, gentle, patient role models for us all.

          If one will do the work they did, one should expect like results. They did not get rich quickly. It takes time to build a really solid business. You will reap what you sow. If you help enough other people get what they want, you can’t help but get what you want. It is really all about your attitude. It all depends upon what is inside you.

          Does Dean’s friend have a million dollar attitude?

          1. “Dean’s friend” seems to be in actuality just “Dean’s acquaintance”. He is afraid [“I’m not afraid of anything.” is just whistling in the dark.] Dean Whalen will find out he is publicly criticizing Dean for not buying a house. (Thus his wish for anonymity.) From the clues he has left over these many days, I surmise he is a careless 24 year-old with a job in the financial industry. (He says he can loan money, but never said it was his.) I further surmise that he joined Dean’s “not a real business” for the contacts it offered. (He indicates he doesn’t want to sell the products and may not have even used them.) He may have visualized selling houses to members of Dean’s team. Dean is not buying and teaches others to practice delayed gratification. (He will not talk to his upline about this.) I perceive he is upset with Dean. Posting his frustration is his way of getting even. (Of course he won’t admit this. But, perception is reality. Just look at all of his!)

            He seems to reject the ideas of:
            (1) Do a little, make a little. Do as lot, make a lot. Do nothing, make nothing.
            (2) If you help enough other people get what they want, you will get what you want.
            (3) People helping people help themselves.
            (4) Love people and use money; not the other way around.
            (5) Treat others the way you want to be treated. (Rejection begets rejection.)

            He appears not to understand that what goes around comes around. (We all reap what we sow.)
            He rejects friendship. (If you want a friend, you must first be a friend.
            He thinks it is better to play now and pay later. (He doesn’t want to wait until he is 50 to enjoy life) He seems willing to spend money he doesn’t have to appear successful to others.

            The bottom line is:
            “Dean’s friend” has a failure mentality, not a success mentality. In his mind the facts don’t count, because his mind is made up. He doesn’t want to be confused by any facts. (That would cause him to do some deep thinking.) He wants his upline’s money, not their friendship and advice. (He rejects mentoring and coaching.)

            His is a get rich quick mentality. Use people to get their money. Forget about doing all the hard work helping people. A piece of friendly advice, that is short-term thinking. Each of you can have a long and prosperous future if you will only trust your upline. They have your best interest at heart. Really!

    2. $40 per month is a nominal fee for what the communication system provides. It isn’t that others don’t provide it, and it isn’t that others don’t provide it for less, but what all systems do not do is provide uniformity and standardization. One could argue that but that person is missing the point as it relates to business ownership. It isn’t always about cost. Many times it is about peace of mind. The communication system used provides that. It is also very customizable as it relates to MLM business operations so upgrades, features etc can be delivered to IBO’s specifically for the functions IBO’s need them for.

      The last, and perhaps most important point, is that when an IBO reaches the Platinum level and above, there is a royalty paid to that Platinum for each IBO within their organization. It is very nominal but it does add up and quite frankly it is a very real profit that should be seen (in my humble opinion) as a positive. Every other company that provides a similar service and charges keeps the profit and does not disceminate any portion of the profit but Communikate allows for this to happen.

      My only issue with it is that it isn’t spoken about by many large business leaders at the Diamond level and above and I think it should be.

      I don’t think after speaking with many of these leaders that they are hiding it. If you listen to someone like Robert Kummer he will say it on stage unabashedly and unashamedly. I think it is more a function of when people are mature enough to handle that ind of information. As a business owner myself I can speak to the fact that employees and business owners (small and big) all have a different value system and outlook on these types of issues. The biggest issue with MLM is that one is taking a non business owner who has different values and teaching them how to think as a business owner (thus adopting a separate set of values) and quite frankly that is difficult for people to do until they have marinated long enough. That is why giving out this kind of information could stunt some people’s growth and cause them to quit before developing the maturity that a business owner must think with to be able to properly evaluate that information.

    3. If you truly listen, there is no black and white way to build your business. No right and wrong way, only an understanding of why “you” would do something with the help of your mentor. Nobody forces anything but if you want results you have to understand the mindset. The Whalens own their house after being in the proccess of home ownership of 3 years..in turn they paid 1.2million and paid it off in 3 years. Try that in a job.

  5. It’s very interesting to see people criticize MLM or even someone trying to better their life with an ethical, legal, fair business model and they have anything else to offer you in return. You encourage people to stop dreaming, stop getting “brainwashed”, stop drinking the coolaid, etc… but you will never see them giving you another options or offer you a better deal. It’s very funny to me how people just like to just indulge and want to get ahead somehow where we’ve seen since the early stages of life things worth our while will require some sacrifice from us. Show me a child who never fell while trying to walk, i’ll show you a child who can’t walk! show me a person who never failed in business, took crap for anybody, i’ll show you a person who really hasn’t succeeded. So let’s stop the crusade against mlm in general shall we and let people expect better of themselves.
    thank you.

  6. Seriously…? Why can’t you just go “live” your life instead of stealing hope from other people’s life. If someone buys a coffee shop franchise store… then doesn’t bother to show up to run the store…. should they sue the coffee shop franchisor because it fails? It’s a business like any other.
    Just get over it. You failed because you gave up. The sooner you just man up and accept it… the sooner you’ll be able to get on with your life and spend time with your family.

  7. Privately held companies are regulated for sure. But my point is why do you think there are so many cheating companies, partnership firms, doing all possible illegal activities which are also registered in the governement books. Mere registration is not enough, and as long as you are not having public equity government regulations obviously get limited – which I meant above. There are thousands of MLMs which are registered but involved in fraudulant activities. It is always easy to criticise someone’s knowledge, but why there are so many IBOs who come in with dream to get what is promised and end-up shouting against their respective MLM? One person feeling offended by a company is not a big issue, so many court battles do not come for nothing. MLM/Amway cults always think in dream. Do you mean to say all people who are so called Amway success stories were perfect on earth? I do not think so, but if the business model is designed to make larger percentage of the people fail, then we call it as a scam and this website is designed for defending one!

    1. The premise that a site is meant to “defend” is a mis characterization. Sites such as this one are meant to inform. There are both positive and negative on this site and people can judge for themselves.

      The whole “scam” position actually points out a very real issue in society, not just in business, by highlighting the fact that people have stopped in large part thinking critically and then comparing that critical thought to common sense.

      Facts are facts both positive and negative. The disclosure of average monthly income for instance is not to highlight how many people fail but rather a stipulation the FTC wants the LOS and Amway to incorporate due to some poeple’s false or misleading claims about income. That is to be commended. However, when you look at the actual disclosure the statistics are laughable.

      You are considered “active” if you attended a major function or if you “attempted” to sell a product. So basically anyone who is registered is “active”. Therefore everyone is included in the averages presented. Of course both those who strongly support and condemn the Amway Business Slaes and Marketing Plan can recognize that this is factually inaccurate.

      At the end of the day every legal entity that matters, business body, state, and municipality has deemed the Amway Sales and Marketing Plan as a legal alternative to traditional businesses.

      The one exception I take is to the “promise” argument. Let us all just agree that no one “promised” anyone wealth. Do people make claims from a stage that are not true? I don’t know. I am sure that has happened. But I am also sure that many companies make claims about their employees expected income that are false as well. I know I have worked for some where this has been the case. And, by some chance this did happen, the person who believed that “promise” should own some portion of the responsibility for believing such a promise. It has taken my wife and I seven years to reach the Platinum level but the growth process was most surely elongated due to a lack of consistent work habit, and I was never promised anything except that I would have help every step of the way…which has been uphelp by my line of mentorship.

  8. (1) Privately held companies aren’t subject to government regulations? That’s news to me. And all the privately held companies that are subject to all the government laws and regulations ….

    (2) Anyone running a business obviously keeps all bills and “other proofs” for tax purposes. Seems to me you’re implying that people likely to fail at Amway and try to sue did not treat the business opportunity like a business. I agree there.

    (3) You clearly haven’t actually read the lawsuit in question, which is against Amway, not any “systems”, and has allegations about Amway, not “systems”.

    If you’re going to go around publicly calling a company a scam, I suggest you actually start reading about it, as well as accusations about it, in legitimate sources.

  9. Well, the problem with these lawsuits is that “officially” Amway does not endorse any of those activities which are targeted by people who file suits. The “Systems” which preach financial freedom are the real culprits, but for normal people, both are same. These “Systems” follow every possible psychological methods to keep people in the dark, and force people to work against “rules” of Amway.

    Nobody joins Amway or any MLM to sue it, and therefore they do not have the bills and other proofs that can hold good in a court of law. Just as anybody they join and follow the one who introduced to it.

    Every pro Amway, pro MLM cultist defends by saying it is the fault of IBO to fail in the business. However, Amway does not stop collaborating with all those “Business Education Systems”. This itself vindicates the fact that Amway is run by the success of those affiliate systems and hence reason for losses to so many IBOs.

    Amway being a privately held company, it is not subjected to government regulations, no one can prove that Amway is at fault at any count from a public interest litigation point of view.

    1. Nobody says it is fault of IBO for not succeeding just for the sake of saying. You really have to see how many people give it a honest try. Just attending meetings and listening to tapes doesn’t make you succeed. You have to put in action consistently. You say Amway cultists defend themselves by saying it is fault of IBO for failing. How many times have you seen failed IBOs and AntiMLM cultists like you accept it is their fault? They always blame it on the business

    2. Your claim that privately held companies are not regulated is ignorance at its best. Privately held companies are not required to publish their financial information. That is the only benefit.

    3. Regarding your second paragraph:
      Record keeping is important, especially if you have a business! Long-term thinkers keep records. “Hobbyists” don’t usually keep records.

      When we started in 1970 our filing system was a shoe box. We were careful to put all our Amway financial document in it. (That included a record of the miles we drove – a lot.) We knew we would have to pay taxes and would need proof for the deductions we planned to take. At the end of the year, I sorted it all out. We followed Jay Van Andel’s advice, “Do the things that are important.” We decided housekeeping and bookkeeping would not be at the top of our priority list. (They are important, though.)

      We taught our downline by example. When asked if the business worked, we would show our customer receipts. The business does work when one has retail customers. Happy customers make the best IBOs. Happy customers come from excellent products and reliable service.

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