In the comments of the post More Clueless Amway Critics, one of the subjects of the post, Amway critic pokerpooner, decided to add his side of the story into the comments. In my opinion all he successfully did was prove the point of the post - he’s clueless about the Amway business, how it works, and it’s potential as a business. Later in the discussion, when I asked him to provide some evidence to back up some claims he was making, he simply became abusive. In my experience Amway critics often require supporters of the Amway business to be able to provide incontrovertible proof of any claims. Indeed on more than one occassion I’ve been told that Amway Corporation is not an acceptable source for Amway sales data, since they’re probably lying about it. 
Ask them for some evidence to back up their claims however, and all of a sudden they want to change the subject.
During the discussion with pokerpooner I happened across another example of the kind of claims that Amway critics make that are clearly, and provably, clueless. Scott Larsen on his Amquix site regularly posts collections of emails he’s received from his visitors. I actually analysed several months of this once and discovered that only a third of those he posted were actually of people with a negative experience. Another third were people supporting the business (and I know he doesn’t publish all of those, since he didn’t publish one of mine) - but the remaining third or so were prospects and brand new IBOs who had decided not to join/quit because of what they had read on his site - clear evidence of the damage being caused by the Internet War against Amway. Here is an example of the kind of idle, clueless, gossip they read -
It appears that emerald Mike Waechter maybe quitely losing his Emerald ship and may have to resume his job back at Allied insurance. This is a big deal because in the fall of 2002 he had a big retirement party featuring more than 1,000 Quixtar distributors, many of who came close to disturbuting the peace of a Des Moines insurance agency.
This was part of an email from “john” that Scott Larsen published in a section headed Site Visitor E-Mail Oct - Dec 2005. Mike Waechter was an IBO in the LTD organisation, downline of double diamonds Joe & Marybeth Markiewicz. “John” even back up his claim about the supposedly parlous nature of the Waechter business with the name of a Ruby in the Waechter downline whom John claimed had file for bankruptcy and quit Amway. Was any of this true? How would a reader know? Amway businesses do fall out of qualification, so it’s certainly plausible. There’s just one small problem for John’s credibility. You see, according to Larsen, this letter was sent sometime in October, November, or December of 2005. As readers of Achieve magazine and would soon find out, and IBOs in LTD most likely already knew - Mike & Jana Waechter didn’t fall out of Emerald qualification then: they had just qualified as new Diamonds!
Another clueless Amway critic. It’s sad so many people believe them.
ibofightback,
I am an IBO, and am delighted to have a growing Amway business.
I’m very grateful for the work that you do in attempting to provide a more balanced picture of Amway online.
However, I feel it is a great shame that you are stooping to the level of the ‘clueless critics’ by publicly criticising them here. By doing so, not only are you providing further coverage of the negativity, but you are also going to make them feel even more inclined to push their side of the story - you are actually doing more harm than good.
Amway bashing, critic bashing - there’s not much to separate the two.
You’re good when you stick to the positive stories, but when you engage in street fights it’s a real turn off.
But that’s just my opinion. I’m not saying I’m right - but that’s the feeling your blog has given off this week.
Like i’ve said earlier i dont have the audio and call me clueless all you want. Atleast im not wasting money on tools or overpriced products. Im just started the obvious you go online putting people down and what time of response do you expect? You said something about joecool seeing prostitutes. If you’re a total jerk to us critics …..i dont have to be that nice to you.
lol sorry for the typos ….stated not started and type not time
There would be as many critics if we werent lied too. Call me clueless all you want. But i clearly remember my upline diamond Rod Jao,Dan Yuen,Greg Duncan,Bill Britt etc saying they dont ever borrow money or owe money. Also told us at meetings that they paid for everything in cash. Of course i dont have the audio and im a clueless twit. Now it seems Greg duncans homes are foreclosing.
Here’s the deal we critics dont think we’re perfect or that we know everything. Sometimes we make comments which are mistakes. When Larsen or some other people who do make a comment which might be a mistake they usually apologize for it or admit it. Nobody ever said the critic sites are perfect and every stat is perfect.
“You see, according to Larsen, this letter was sent sometime in October, November, or December of 2005. As readers of Achieve magazine and would soon find out, and IBOs in LTD most likely already knew - Mike & Jana Waechter didn’t fall out of Emerald qualification then: they had just qualified as new Diamonds!
Another clueless Amway critic. It’s sad so many people believe them.”
Seriously nobody probably even noticed or cared about comment about Waechter falling out of qualification. Most people who look online realize many of the diamonds do fall out of qualification.
insider/ibofightsback wrote
“Waechter didn’t fall out of Emerald qualification then: they had just qualified as new Diamonds!
Another clueless Amway critic. It’s sad so many people believe them.”
How do you know nobody probably noticed or even cared about the Waechter comment?
Aside from which, that’s beside the point. The point is that here’s some guy rubbishing Amway making a claim that was quite obviously completely false. He had no idea - what else are folk claiming, when it reality they are clueless?
Roger,
I understand your perspective, however I originally started this site to address the multitude of myths that are spread by the critics. I don’t think pointing out where they are saying stuff that is outright false quite ranks alongside “clueless”.
My “target audience” is the prospect who is googling. As laid out in earlier posts, it is extremely likely that these folk have already visited and read the “negative”, they’re not going there because of what I say here, they’ve already been there.
Does it make it more likely that folk like pokerpooner are going to “take up the fight” here? Sure, but he’s already posting this stuff on a site that gets 4-5 times the traffic. By posting here pretty much all he has done is confirm what I said in the post. He doesn’t know much about what he is talking about.
“Ignore the critics” has been the mantra of the last decade - and it clearly hasn’t worked.
If you want to stick to the positive, then check out Amway Watch and promote it on other sites so it makes some moves on the search engine rankings!
In the meantime I’ll continue to post here about whatever I feel like talking about, which will include both highlighting the positive, and also pointing out why much of what the critics say simply can’t be trusted.
pokerpooner,
Perhaps you could collect your thoughts first, and then write, and then review what you’ve written before you hit the “post comment” button?
Or better yet, why don’t you to your MySpace? Seems to be a better fit for you, considering that your experience in the Amway business occured very briefly over 14 years ago.
IBOfightback, Bridgett,
This is your new friend John, but absolutely not the “John” IBOfightback mentions in this blog. I’ve never heard of the Emerald of the story he mentions.
With that said, think about who is clueless. It is the new IBO. I do have personal involvement with the business. Prospects and new IBOs are not told that their upline gurus profit CDs, functions, Kate, Premier, books, etc. There are huge transfers of money out of the pockets of the lowly IBOs into the pockets of the kingpins. This is no longer disputable. The profiles of success pages that are shown to new IBOs are “very clearly” an attempt to show the mansions, boats and hummers obtained through the Amway/Quixtar. The Achieve magazine is the same. The truth is that those mansions are not bought with just Amway/Quixtar money. As a matter of fact, the diamonds in more than a few cases don’t even own the mansions in those pictures. Case in point, David Shores big page featuring his mansion. Truth is he didn’t own it. The bank did. And Diamond Shores wasn’t making his mortgage payments. Therefore it was foreclosed. That is deception. Now we see that Greg Duncan has properties that are being foreclosed on. These guys are abviously not “financially free”. David Shores called his home a dream come true. I have listned to a WWDB Ruby/Emerald brag to people in my city that he was making ten to twenty thousand a month. It was an absolute lie. Red flags made me look and sure enough, he had declared bankruptcy at the very time he was bragging about his huge income. In his bankruptcy, he declared before the judge that his income was less than $4,000 per month (with no benefits). But the young people would join and order CDs. Why? Not because they knew the truth that this Ruby had just declared bankruptcy. They joined because they believed a lie that he was making atleast ten thousand a month in his spare time. That is deceit and it is difficult to understand your constant defense of this consistent behavior .
I just wished these sites where around while i was in the business. Im not the only one taking up the fight cause no critic really cares about your dinky winky site. We all think it’s a joke here and that you’re here to entertain us. If your business was so great and the business leaders where good honest people …there wouldnt be so many critics.
ibofightsback said
“My “target audience” is the prospect who is googling. As laid out in earlier posts, it is extremely likely that these folk have already visited and read the “negative”, they’re not going there because of what I say here, they’ve already been there.”
actually i dont really care about making sense on this board. Infact just to piss off a few people i can come in here drunk and not care to check what i’ve typed in. It’s friday night having a few drinks and not out showing the plan
Bridgett
Aug 23rd, 2008 at 10:19 am
pokerpooner,
Perhaps you could collect your thoughts first, and then write, and then review what you’ve written before you hit the “post comment” button?
John, you claim -
Prospects and new IBOs are not told that their upline gurus profit CDs, functions, Kate, Premier, books, etc.
This is completely FALSE. It’s in the contract and has been for years, it’s on virtually every A/Q website. It’s all over the place. It’s simply not true to say IBOs aren’t told about it.
It might have been true 15 years ago, but even then it wasn’t exactly a secret. Heck, I didn’t even consider the option that there wasn’t profit on tools or that speakers weren’t paid. I was surprised to find out people were surprised about it! Where else in this world, when someone is selling something, would you assume nobody is profiting from it? When you think about it, it’s a kind of silly assumption.
As for the rest,
(1) there’s thousands of Diamonds. You’ll always be able to find something that someone said that can be interpreted some way to look bad. Some of it even will be bad!
(2) people say dumb things sometimes, get over it
(3) I really doubt anyone joined the business purely because of one Ruby fibbing about his income. Like the folk highlighted in the UK case, they were being dishonest. Welcome to the real world. Where exactly in the Amway literature does it say that everyone who joins Amway suddenly becomes a perfect human being? How many tens of thousands of Rubies are there in the world? I can absolutely guarantee that the example you gave is not the only time some Ruby has been dishonest. But why should it overshadow the tens of thousands that are not?
(4)By your Shores example, anyone saying “this is my house”, or “this is my car” when they have a bank loan to pay for it is being dishonest and deceitful. That’s ridiculous.
Pokerpooner - far more people qualify as new Platinums every year in the US than have EVER posted some critical comment about Amway on the ‘net. Get some perspective. There’s not “so many critics”.
Would you be one of these new platinums? I’ve been told you done absolutely nothing in this business for years now. When you where involved you’ve spent money on overpriced products and useless expensive tools like the rest of us.
ibofightsback
far more people qualify as new Platinums every year in the US than have EVER posted some critical comment about Amway on the ‘net. Get some perspective. There’s not “so many critics”.
No we where just lied to about the amount which was being made with these tools. When shown the plan majority of us was told very little was made with tools
Ibofightsback
This is completely FALSE. It’s in the contract and has been for years, it’s on virtually every A/Q website. It’s all over the place. It’s simply not true to say IBOs aren’t told about it.
What is completely false is the perception that “leaders” in this business actually abide by the rules, and do everything the corporation tells them to do.
Ridiculous prices and reputation aside, that’s a big problem for you, Bridgett, Tex, or Dave.
Sure they punted Woodward and a few others, but you folks that are regulars on here are far more intelligent than to believe that all the leaders are following the rules.
At the end of the day, what anyone reading either this blog or any blog opposing Amway will see is that the current ABO’s have something to gain with their vigorous defense and damage control tactic.
Critics really have nothing to gain by speaking against it.
Cause he’s a clueless ambot
John
That is deceit and it is difficult to understand your constant defense of this consistent behavior .
Rocket, since you can’t provide any evidence to support you claims about what you say Diamonds regularly state, can you provide any evidence to support your insinution that anyone here has even implied that “all the leaders are following the rules”??
I know that getting a sound clip may require you to get off your butt and find one of the millions of tapes that must be able to support your claim. This however you should be able to do from the comfort of your chair. Please, provide a link to where any of us of implied that “all the leaders are following the rules”?
My new friend John,
My personal experience over the years is:
I’ve heard many a Diamond say that they RENT their houses.
I’ve heard many a Diamond say that unless it’s your dream home that you plan on living in forever, let someone else deal with the headaches of ownership.
(not an unusual concept–I believe Kiyosaki also subscribes to this method)
Does that mean all Diamonds rent? No.
All I am saying is that just as you find it deceitful to say ALL Diamonds SAY they own their homes outright with cash, I find it equally deceitful to take isolated incidents of a handful of IBOs (at whatever level) and determine that ALL 3 million CURRENT IBOs (let alone the millions who’ve come and gone) fit that same mold.
The Amway business has paid out $50 billion in cash and “perks” in it’s 49-year history.
That’s:
$50,000,000,000
or
50 thousand millions
or
50 million thousands
or
5 million ten-thousands
There is money to be made in this business. Plenty of money.
Bridgett,
Divide your numbers by the # of IBOs and then consider expenses and you will see that the average IBO loses money. It is a joke. I speak only of WWDB. Are you in WWDB? Have you sat at their functions? I have stated from the beginning that my experience is with WWDB, not all diamonds from every other “family line”.
IBOFightback,
Say what you want. Have you sat at WWDB finctions? Do you have firsthand experience with WWDB? Here is one of the most common statements made from the stage, “We don’t make money unless you make money.” That is a lie. 95% of a diamonds downline does not make money. The math easily proves that. The diamonds make money from the trusting IBOs who buy their incessant (same old story) CDs every week.
Knowing that it goes on while you are defending it, and choosing not to admit to the faults of Amway leaders is dishonesty by omission.
I don’t have my old tapes. Sorry. If you can prove that I never heard it, that’s fantastic.
john,
I am a member of the Screen Actors Guild–that’s the union of professional actors.
Take the total $$ that all the actors of the union make–including the $15 million I paid to the lead actress on the last movie I worked on (I’m an accountant in the movie industry).
Now take all that money and divide it by the number of actors just in the union (not even all the non-union actors).
That dollar figure would be way below the poverty level, even BEFORE taking in to account all the thousands of dollars these actors pay for headshots, acting classes, loss of income from their day jobs to go on auditions, etc., etc., etc.
What is your point?
***********************
You cannot just show up to functions and expect to make the big bucks (or even the little bucks).
No matter how many CDs you listen to, it ain’t gonna produce a money tree in your living room.
Listening to your voicemails every day will not produce 20 customers who consistently buy from you.
Switching over your entire household to products offered by Quixtar/Amway Global won’t make 20 IBOs who will duplicate your efforts magically appear on your doorstep.
There are two major activities that critics seem to miss–retailing a product and sharing the business opportunity with others.
The other activities have ZERO value unless you partake, on a consistent basis, the two major activities.
Bridgett and John:
Your SAG example is exactly analogous to John’s IBO example. While there’s potentially lots of money to be made in the film industry and in Amway, most of the money to-date has been concentrated in the pockets of only a select few. For every famous actor or actress, there are dozens if not hundreds of struggling ones. Most IBOs who have come and gone in Amway have not made any serious amount of money and many — it can be argued — have lost money.
This is not to say that you cannot make money in Amway. Nor is it to say that you cannot become a famous and successful actor or actress. The percentages are low, however, that you will succeed. Will that stop someone from pursuing his or her dream? No, but eventually there is reality to be confronted.
You are correct that retailing is an important part of building an Amway business. Sadly, in my line of sponsorship (admittedly, my experience is 10 years old), retailing was not something that was strongly encouraged nor heavily promoted. That’s not to say that it wasn’t, but the mantra at the time was Buy From Yourself And Teach Others to Do the Same. Most IBOs in INA (and presumably other LOS) did exactly what their leaders told them to do. Is it their fault for not retailing? Sure. After all, they are supposed to be independent business owners. I would argue, however, that the blame is not solely 100% on the IBOs shoulders; the Systems have as much or greater blame to bear.
Accreditation and a renewed focus on retailing from Amway Global is good to see this past year. I’m also glad to see that IBOs such as yourself and The Big Apple are sharing their experiences and techniques for building a profitable business.
That said, there are still many IBOs and Systems that are not teaching what you are preaching; in fact, in some circles, what you are saying is considered crosslining and frowned down upon. It’s those individuals and organizations that are the targets of critics such as myself.
Rocket said -
Knowing that it goes on while you are defending it, and choosing not to admit to the faults of Amway leaders is dishonesty by omission.
I ask AGAIN - Since you can’t or won’t support the claim about mansions and jets etc being paid for by cash, then at least support this claim.
Please provide a link to where I or Bridgett has defended people making exaggerated income claims
Why should I believe your reports of events of more than a decade ago, when you’re not even accurately reporting what’s being said today!
Getting very old cause most of us have tossed out our videos. You’re constantly repeating this.
Ibofightsback
I know that getting a sound clip may require you to get off your butt and find one of the millions of tapes that must be able to support your claim. This however you should be able to do from the comfort of your chair. Please, provide a link to where any of us of implied that “all the leaders are following the rules”?
Amthrax,
Thank you for your thoughtful response.
One thing I do want to say though, is that one’s “chances” of making a few hundred bucks a month profit (which, according to surveys of past and present IBOs, is what the majority are looking to do)is far better in this biz than through acting.
And I agree with you–not all IBOs nor all “Systems” are jumpin’ on the Transformation Train.
Oh well…let’s see who’s standing in five years…I have teeny tiny sympathy for those unwilling to change and fix the problems.
Amthrax said -
I would argue, however, that the blame is not solely 100% on the IBOs shoulders; the Systems have as much or greater blame to bear.
What’s to argue? I don’t think anyone here or on AmwayTalk disagrees with you.
Folk like Bridgett (and to a lesser extent myself) are building an Amway business today. We’re building it with systems, and we’re building it with customers.
Why on earth should we have to put up with people complaining about things that are a decade or more old, with groups that don’t exist, with diamonds that aren’t even in Amway anymore, and talking about it as if (a) it’s current (b) it’s a universal approach and (c) it applies to us!
That’s what we find so damn irritating
And don’t try to tell me it’s “just about their experience”. For crying out loud, Pokerpooner on this site and QBlog has been talking about a current Malaysian Founders Crown Ambassador and making insinuations about them being deceitful!
Have you any idea how far removed that is from a decade+ old complaint about some american diamond in some particular group?
I havent ever heard this and can you please give us which diamond has said this and maybe provide some proof that he said this. You said you’ve heard many diamonds say they rent their homes so it must be on audio right at functions? By the way im told that they rented their properties and the huge incomes they earn from system tools i wouldnt have bothered being a distributor.
Bridgett:
My new friend John,
My personal experience over the years is:
I’ve heard many a Diamond say that they RENT their houses.
I’ve heard many a Diamond say that unless it’s your dream home that you plan on living in forever, let someone else deal with the headaches of ownership.
(not an unusual concept–I believe Kiyosaki also subscribes to this method)
Does that mean all Diamonds rent? No.
I dare i make insinuations about some big wig pin being deceitful. When you are goinog around saying one of the critics are seeing hookers/escorts. Yes i’ve seen some videos at dreamnight,fed,etc and dont have video of these people making income claims or saying they own this or that without making mortgage payments.
ibofightsback
For crying out loud, Pokerpooner on this site and QBlog has been talking about a current Malaysian Founders Crown Ambassador and making insinuations about them being deceitful!
I will be the first one to admit that was a poor choice with a example of video. I was trying to show how deceitful some of these big pins are with hyping their lifestyle I’ve seen big pins claim they own certain items which clearly their income cannot afford. Just take a look at greg duncan for example he made extreme income claims and property claims. But it’s shown on amquix.info that his properties are foreclosing. For the record i dont have the videos or audios of the diamonds hyping their lifestyle. So dont bother asking me for it abofightsback.
ibofightsback
Malaysian Founders Crown Ambassador and making insinuations about them being deceitful!
pokerpooner,
You were in the biz in 1994, yes? Your upline Diamonds at that time were renting their home.
He owned his townhome, sold it at Emerald, rented until EDC, then purchased his current home.
Considering you were personally sponsored by Jao, who was personally sponsored by your Diamond, living in the same town as your Diamond, you would know this.
I was told by Rod Jao that his buddy EDC Dan Yuen owned his house. He never told us that Dan Yuen rented his property. Rod told us that system tools where only a fraction of the diamonds income and mainly to cover cost of functions. Bridgett which other diamonds have said they rented their properties? You said there was many diamonds who rented i want proof because ibofightback seems to demand proof from whatever we say. We didnt have the internet in those days we took Rod and dan yuens word at face value. As for living in the same town as dan yuen most people dont go to city hall or wherever you would find out who owns which property. We trust in what he said even though it was suspicious when they hyped their lifestyle or what they owned.
Bridgett:
Considering you were personally sponsored by Jao, who was personally sponsored by your Diamond, living in the same town as your Diamond, you would know this.
pokerpooner said
I dare i make insinuations about some big wig pin being deceitful. When you are goinog around saying one of the critics are seeing hookers/escorts.
Are you seriously claiming that making false accusations about someone, with no evidence to back it up is somehow the same as pointing out a fact, as stated in the critics own words? I didn’t make it up, and the proof is public and available to anyone who wants to look at it. There’s nothing unclear, or needing interpretation about it, it’s true.
You on the other hand made claims about these Malaysian Crown Ambassadors, completely ignoring the fact the video itself clearly pointed out that the “lifestyle” elements shown were free trips provided by the Amway corporation.
“first to admit it ws a poor choice?”
First? After well over a hundred comments on these two posts?
Yeah right.
My upline diamonds probably did rent their properties but what we’re told is different. That’s why some of us critics are very upset. If many of the diamonds are renting …..many of their followers/ibos arent often told this or aware of it. Especially when they are told not to trust the web or dont dig up dirt about quixtar or upline
Pokerpooner, if you don’t believe what Bridgett is saying, then you’re well within your rights to ask for some evidence to back it up. Bridgett is however making a relatively minor claim about a small number of people. It’s not an “extraordinary claim” at all, but would be quite difficult to provide evidence for, even if true.
Your claims have been about thousands of people and, if true, should be relatively easy to provide evidence for.
Nah it wasnt just once that i admit this video was poor choice. I said way earlier when there was less than a hundred comments. There are other videos which doesnt show it’s a company sponsor event. Oh by the way i dont have the video or audio cause im not lame and dont keep junk on hand.
ibofightsback
first to admit it ws a poor choice?”
First? After well over a hundred comments on these two posts?
Yeah right.
Here’s what im talking about not sure if you ever pay attention to anything cause you’re just a clueless ambot
pokerpooner
Aug 21st, 2008 at 9:48 pm
Maybe this video is a poor example but we where just discusting how Mr Duncan cannot afford a few of his homes and that’s why Mr Kim video was brought up. Most people when watching this video have no idea this was a perk which Mr Kim got and this stuff wasnt owned by him. That’s the thing we’re discussing the hype involved in this business
Again it wasnt over a hundred post. Actually i was very quick to point out the video was a poor choice and there are better videos. But then you went crazy on all of us.
ibofightsback
“first to admit it ws a poor choice?”
First? After well over a hundred comments on these two posts?
Yeah right.
Ok, so you admitted it earlier, my apologies.
How about admitting you had no idea what “founders council” is?
Do you know now?
That’s why i said the video was poor choice lol. Apologies accepted by the way:)
lol you kinda told us over and over the perks n benefits of founders council but im a clueless critic so maybe i still dont have a clue
You didn’t think perhaps it was worth checking, considering it appeared again and again on the video?
pokerpooner,
Once again, please stop your rants. You really make very little sense.
Bridgett,
I agree with you that the chances of making big money in the acting world is about the same as making big money in Quixtar. Here is the difference. When a person begins the journey into the acting profession, it is common knowledge that only a very small percentage will succeed to the level of the million dollar actor. The acting guild doesn’t hide this fact. In WWDB, all new recruits are taught that WWDB has a “proven system of success.” They are told if they do CORE (put lots of tools money in the pockets of the kingpins), they will succeed to diamond level. The is a proven system of success & they teach that it is to be accomplished in 2-5 years. In other words, Hollywood has much more integrity by telling the inspiring actor in the first place that the odds of great success are very hard to beat. While in WWDB, they are deceived to believe that if they do CORE it is “proven” that they will rise to the top-diamond level. So atleast Hollywood tells the truth.
John, I can’t speak for WWDB speakers, but multiple times in multiple countries, from multiple different speakers have I heard folk on stage and CD say something along the lines of “only 1 or 2 of you will actually do this” to crowds of thousands.
Indeed, virtually every group I’m aware of talks about the 20-12-9-3 or similar statistics - that only 3 out of every 20 who join will do much at all, let alone go Diamond.
Heck, the contract and prospecting materials give the percentages who go Diamond. In the US it has done since the 70s.
So everywhere along the way it’s being pointed out that very few people even build the business, let alone build it big.
So where exactly again is the deceit?
john,
WWDB “CORE” involves more than consuming “tools”.
The two activites of CORE, the actual WORK habits, that seem to be neglected by the majority of IBOs are retailing and exposing the busines opportunity to others.
You can’t just show up to functions, you can’t just listen to CDs, you can’t just check your voicemail, you can’t just sip your XS and wash your clothes with SA8, and expect money to fall from the sky.
Go get a job, show up every day, sit there like a bump on a log and see how much money they’ll pay you.
Why should is be different with this business?
Let’s face it: Some IBOs like the IDEA of this business, but truth be told, simply do not want to do the work.
They want to be a part of it, hang out with “winners”, but truth be told, the most “active” they are, is when they switch from one butt cheek to another, in a seat at a function/meeting.
We even got ex-IBOs from 10, 12, 15 years ago wanting to still engage online! What a wacky biz this is. Unbelievable. LOL.
john,
The “proven system of success” involves one important element that you overlook. It’s called WORK, if you don’t do the work, you won’t get results. During the plan, we have to show how much the “average” IBO makes more than once. If you look at what “average” means, it means an IBO who attempted to make a retail sale, received bonus money, or attended a meeting, at least once in a YEAR. That is not putting in much work.
> Folk like Bridgett (and to a lesser extent myself) are
> building an Amway business today. We’re building it with
> systems, and we’re building it with customers.
I will speak for the North American market only. Those IBOs following Bridgett’s lead is but a subset of all IBOs in North America. Is it 10%, 50% or 99%? Whatever the number is, I don’t have a problem with them. As far as I can tell, I think they are building the business in a straightforward and ethical manner.
That said, there is still a percentage of Systems and IBOs building it the way I experienced 10 years ago — heavy focus on tools, BFYATODS teaching, etc. It’s these organizations and individuals that critics have a legitimate beef with. Just because you aren’t part of those organizations does not mean they do not exist.
That said, there is still a percentage of Systems and IBOs building it the way I experienced 10 years ago — heavy focus on tools, BFYATODS teaching, etc.
Is there? Every “system” I’m aware of teaches to have customers. Who today is saying no customers?
Just because you aren’t part of those organizations does not mean they do not exist.
Question above aside - where did we say they do not exist? Where do we say they did not exist?
Again and again I find “critics” who interpret an IBO who says “that’s not my experience” as somehow invalidating the critics experience. It’s a non sequitur, that’s not what the IBO said at all. This just seems to confirm my belief the “critic” simply has no concept at all of how big Amway is and what a small part of it they’ve seen.
Bridgett and Visioneer,
Yes it takes work. Life itself takes work. But since much less than 1 in a thousand gets to diamond and it is a “proven system of success”, are you saying that 99.5% of IBOs aren’t willing to work? Or is that these great “motivatal” speakers and teachers can’t even inspire 1% of their downline to work enough to be diamond in 2-5 years?
john said,
“Or is that these great “motivatal” speakers and teachers can’t even inspire 1% of their downline to work enough to be diamond in 2-5 years?”
LOL! Oh WOW!!!! I cannot believe you said that. LOL. You are blaming Diamonds for other people’s lack of effort.
So I guess you are not a lover of personal responsibility?
LOL.
Oh how I wish each prospective IBO had to go through an interview process before they were allowed to be sponsored.
Oh how I wish it took more than 59 bucks and a heartbeat to start an Amway business…
LOL. Oh john, you are too funny.
Bridgett,
What elementary school, high school or college would still be open if 99.5% of the students didn’t accomplish the target of graduating? Also, you didn’t answer my question. Do you think that 99.5% of all IBOs are just lazy and unwilling to work? And it you are in WWDB, and if you are CORE and if you have been working, have you reached diamond status in 2-5 years? Because that is exactly what they teach their “proven system of success” is all about.
John, you have incredible arrogance to pretend to know what other people’s goals are. Someone may have a goal simply to buy some products and sell a few occasionally. They do so successfully - yet here are you calling them “lazy and unwilling to work”.
Neither you, nor I, get to decide what other peoples goals or priorities are.
john,
The difference between a teaching System and your lame school example, is that in a teaching System like WWDB they don’t kick you out when you doing follow the “curriculum”.
*********************************
And as an Upline who have plenty people beat their chests, claiming that they will “be CORE” no matter what, and then get side-tracked by the itiest bitiest thing, what should I do with those people, john?
Fire them? Kick ‘em out?
No john. I don’t “fire” them. Just like my Upline hasn’t fired me when I’ve chosen FOR WHATEVER REASON, LAME OR UNLAME, not to put in the effort.
We encourage people, we love them, we believe in them, and we stick by them, just like I do with my children, because we know that we can’t force them to do anything.
It’s must be their decision, not mine.
And, just like a parent sees their kids make stupid mistakes, just like a parent sees so much untapped potential, all I can do be there to uplift and encourage and be an example.
They have enough people in their lives, including people like you and all the critics online, telling them that they can’t or that it’s not possible or it’s not worth it, so don’t even try and blah blah blah.
I choose to be a different voice.
The above should’ve read:
The difference between a teaching System and your lame school example, is that in a teaching System like WWDB they don’t kick you out when you don’t follow the “curriculum”.
IBOfightback,
How many times have you heard the plan as presented by a WWDB IBO? How many WWDB rallies did you sit in to learn how to present “the plan”? How many times have you sat at a WWDB function and listened to the diamonds? To be honest, unless you have been there (and I have numerous times) then you are the one being a bit arrogant in thinking you know what they teach. If you were at any of the FEDs then you would know that the Goads (their musical motivational group) never sings about just making a few extra bucks. The sing and people jump un and down over who the next diamond is going to be. And every single speaker stands and talks of what “this business” is all about. The rallies have absolutely nothing to do with just making a few extra bucks; it is all about doing CORE and going diamond. It is about saying goodbye to the job; it is about financial freedom; it is about mansions and boats; it is about diamond in 2-5 years. In the paper IBOs are taught to prospect with, the questions are, “What would you do with an extra $50,000 this year? What would you do if you were making $250,000 in the next 5 years?
So be honest. How many WWDB functions have you attended and how many WWDB plans have you heard? I am speaking from very personal experience. You call it arrogance; I call it sharing my experience.
So john…
From your very personal experience, do you have someone who has consistantly “showed the plan” to 10 potential IBOships every month for 24 months?
That IS part of the “proven system”, yes?
And what were their results?
*********************************
As I’ve said before, all those thousands of people dancing to the GOADS like the IDEA of “freedom”, but how many of them are actually doing anything to move their businesses forward once they leave that function?
From MY personal experience, I’ve met many IBOs who attend functions that you’ve mentioned who are very clear that Diamond is NOT their goal–at least not intially.
*****************************
BTW, from what you are writing, I question when was the last time you were at a function, because yes,the Diamonds do talk about building a diamondship, BUT their main focus that they talk about is building a Rubyship.
When was the last time you attended a function, john?
John, I’ve no personal experience with WWDB.
Are you claiming that *everyone* in WWDB joins with the active #1 goal of going Diamond? That people aren’t even allowed to join if they just want to be platinum (the $50,000/yr) or Emerald or even just make $100/mth? And are you claiming that if they change their goal or priorities at some time, that WWDB makes them resign?
What happens exactly when someone decides they don’t want to put in the dedication to go Diamond and are happy with something smaller?
john,
It’s estimated that only 20% of IBO’s in a “system” ever go to a function. Of that, an even smaller percentage decide to go Platinum or Diamond. Of that small percentage, an even smaller percentage actually go out and DO the WORK!!
3 frogs are on a log, one decides to jump off. How many are left? The answer is 3, one only decided, he still has to act and jump off.
Once again, you seem to place the blame on the business or the system. As Bridgett pointed out, personal responsibility is the key.
Visioneer,
Does personal responsibility include making your house payment if you “proclaim to thousands” that you are a financially free diamond? Just a simple yes or no would be good.
Bridgett,
Yes I do know more more than a few IBOs who poured their hearts into “the business” and after years of labor were still losing money. I don’t think it is so much their fault as they honestly poured their hearts into it. I think much fault lies at the feet of the kingins who for the last 7 years have been proclaiming how the Quixtar business is “exploding” & critical mass is about to “be obtained.” For 7 years, low level IBOs have been told that Quixtar has been exploding. Both Duncan and Puryear exaggerated so bad in saying that this business would likely be a $100 billion business in 5 years. Now the truth has been admitted by Alticor that Quixtar has been completely stagnant. Thus they want to go back to “Amway” but try to make it look new by calling it “Amway Global”.
So when new IBOs are consistend lied to about the growth of the business, they can work their hearts out. I can cite the quotes of Puryear and Duncan if you like. Their predictions only missed by about 99%. That is the selling of a false hope.
No you just smarten up like the rest of us lol. Word it however you want. You are a quitter and some will some wont so what lmao?
Bridgett
No john. I don’t “fire” them. Just like my Upline hasn’t fired me when I’ve chosen FOR WHATEVER REASON, LAME OR UNLAME, not to put in the effort.
John, according to some guy who wrote to Larsen it’s apparently “pre-foreclosure”, not foreclosure, and is not uncommon if there is a disputes with the bank.
Are you suggesting wealthy people should just ignore getting screwed by a bank because they can afford to?
john,
Translate for me what “poured their hearts into the business”.
What does that mean in terms of actual, measurable, activity?
May I see their calendar and see what they were doing to “pour their hearts into the business”?
Thinking about the business and DOING the business are two entirely different activities.
IBOFB are you suggesting that this isn’t a lack of money nor a failure to make payments?
Maybe not, but you sure like throwing garbage at the wall of facts to muddy the waters and see what sticks.
pokerpooner,
Who are you talking to?
Your use of pronouns, among other things, makes it nearly impossible to understand what you are saying.
Go back to your MySpace, Jolie Fan Club, and Hair Loss Forums. Those are a much better fit for you, honey.
I also want to see this quitter losers calender. He probably didnt even poured his heart into this business. I bet this person Johns talking about did even less than bridgett & me lol. Of course me and bridgett for whatever reason decided not to put efford into building this business;)
Bridgett
May I see their calendar and see what they were doing to “pour their hearts into the business”?
Bridgett you’re just a useless quitter like the rest of us so shut your ugly trap k.
Rocket, I’m no expert on US real estate, I’m simply reporting what the “real estate expert” that wrote to Larsen said, though I did not Larsen has reported them as foreclosures, whereas the documents he published clearly say “preforeclosure”.
Some key parts from the “real estate expert” -
I have seen situations like this where a person has had a dispute with a mortgage company and stopped making payments until things were resolved. It does happen. I seriously doubt that these properties will get foreclosed on.
I would again say that I seriously doubt these properties will be foreclosed on. “Pre-foreclosure” is simply a state of default where the lien holders issue both public and private notices that they intend to exercise their legal rights of foreclosure IF the mortgagee does not bring the loans current, plus any interest and penalties. I calculated a total approximate tax assessed value of $4.2 million, and a default judgment of just over $1.5 million (according to that website.) Tax assessments usually are slightly below market value to, sometimes, well below market value. I would bet that there is close to $5 million in real estate there. If he had to, Greg could sell them quickly at 50 cents on the dollar and still pocket over $750,000 AFTER paying the lien holders and the closing costs, commissions, etc.
So while it’s clearly a “failure to make payments”, or at least one payment, it just as clearly does not imply a lack of money. Indeed the second paragraph I quoted above suggests this is almost certainly not the case.
Pokerpooner, keep it civil please. Insult me all you like, but I won’t put up with you abusing others.
ok ibofightsack you’re a idiot & scumb bucket liar
pokerpooner,
I’m a quitter?
Dude, you don’t even take the time to investigate who you are conversing with online?
LMAO.
I dont have to take this crap from this b-tch. She started this garbage. She’s a quitter like the rest of us and acting all high and mighty. She’s nothing more than a ugly old bitch and should shut her ugly old trap
Bridgett
Aug 24th, 2008 at 7:35 pm
pokerpooner,
Who are you talking to?
Your use of pronouns, among other things, makes it nearly impossible to understand what you are saying.
Go back to your MySpace, Jolie Fan Club, and Hair Loss Forums. Those are a much better fit for you, honey.
Charming. Did you have those kind of brilliant people skills when you were in the business?
That would certainly explain why some folk have a bad impression of Amway …
Ok, you were warned. Bye bye.
Nobody could be expected to know any particular ABO’s business activity any more than you would be able. The only thing that seems to be consistent is that there is a MASSIVE turnover rate. Why? Overpriced products? Opportunity isn’t what was presented? Lack of faith in the company? Leaders? Products? Felt misled? Seems to be all hype?
Bridgett it is rather supercilious of you to deduce that people did nothing to build their business and that’s why they failed.
You would fit in perfectly with many of the problems already prevalent in Amway with that attitude…blame the quitter.
It couldn’t possibly be the business itself, after all, we’re smarter than everyone, right?
rocket,
I am asking for details, not bleeding heart stories of nothingness.
You won’t even answer simple questions of when and for how long you were an IBO.
????????????????????????????????????
Just yesterday I was talking to someone (not at all affiliated with Amway/Quixtar) about foreclosures and such.
A knowledgable gentleman involved in multi-million dollar real estate deals.
Veeeerry interesting information on the whys someone, who has the money, would allow propery to go in to pre-foreclosure and even foreclosure.
Rocket, 50% of new IBOs never even place an order after registering. Are you suggesting we consider the possibility those folk worked hard for months to learn and work the business?
Pokerpooner has left a number of further highly offensive posts, obviously with the intention of getting himself banned - or at least I hope that was his intent, I’d hate to think he really was that much of a jerk. I have removed those posts and granted his wish.
Bridgett,
Are you serious? You want to see their calendar. Let me see yours. Let me see Kosage’s, Shores and Duncans. Why won’t a diamond ever show his tax return to prove his Quixtar income? The answer he will give is “that is private”. Well, how is it private when he states “in huge public forums” that he makes over X amount of dollars? But I am convinced that without tool profits, his business would cost as much to run as he makes and would take endless hours.
I do enjoy your spirited conversation & as always wish you the best.
Visioneer,
Where do you get your statistics from (attendance at functions, etc)? I’m curious. Is it public knowledge or something that only a WWDB representative would know?
John, I think anyone with any kind of business could confirm visioneer’s numbers at least roughly fit their own experience.
N21 provides all IBOs who want them with statistics for attendance rates of *growing* businesses within the N21 organisation, and they have higher attendance rates than non-growing organisations. Growing businesses have attendance rates much as visioneer reports.
john,
I’ll show you my calendar. It’ll show that when I do nothing, nothing happens…and when I do something, something happens.
Very simple.
Very basic.
Very elementary.
*************************
In terms of tax returns…huh? I don’t need people’s tax returns to know that there’s a boatload of cash to be made with the Amway/Quxitar business.
Just look at the Amway Sales & Marketing Plan as well as the published largest and average bonuses paid out at all the pin levels.
Those are official figures from the company who is actually writing the checks.
I think that’s a far better source.
But what do I know? Not like I’m not an accountant who’s dealt with hundreds of millions of dollars in a high-profile industry with millionaires in front and behind the camera.
**************************
You wishing me the best leaves me to believe you’re not gonna answer my many questions I asked you.
That’s okay. I understand.
G’day.
Bridgett, your lack of cooperation is the reason I don’t feel the need to share anything with you about my experience.
You’ll show your calender? So we can be expecting a blog post showing us what you did and the profit you made from doing so?
Yeah right. Empirical proof is something none of you have, and your leaders won’t show.
Sounds like a winner to me!
rocket,
My activity and my profits would be a great blog post IF you and other critics were my target audience.
Sorry to break you heart, but I know where you stand and there ain’t nothin’ gonna change your mind, so why waste my precious time? Tick Tock Tick Tock.
How does the saying go? “A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.”
**************************
And
“Lack of cooperation”
Huh?
I asked about your business. You said it was out on the web somewhere.
I don’t wanna look for it. Doesn’t mean that much to me. You had questions about me and my experience, and as quid pro quo, I wanted to know more about you and your business.
That’s all. While we’re quoting other people (I know, CRAZY! Amway people quoiting others..)
“There is nobody so blind as those that will not see.”
Enjoy your holiday. You prospecting people so you can write it off? Your leaders recommend doing so.
Holiday? Oh, that’s right…Canadians say holiday, while Americans say vacation. Checked out my blog, ay? Sorry we didn’t go over to the Canadian side to see the Falls. Didn’t have the kids’ birth certificates to cross the border since it was an impromptu trip.
***************
And why so cranky with me, rocket?
I try to be civil with you and you seem to go on the attack with your snide comments.
********************8
You memorialized a three-month conversation we had over at Opportunity Zone’s Ada-Tudes by creating a link on your blog to it, using my name, and you don’t seem to recall anything about my business?
Also over at Opportuntity Zone, at Beth’s Inside Quixtar, you all but called me a liar when I made mention of our (my husband’s and my) downline Platinum leg.
Are you pulling my leg or do you reallly have such a short-term memory?
*********************
And lastly, I don’t care about your Amway/Quixtar experience.
All I have asked (about six times now) is when and for how long were you an IBO.
And you refuse to answer.
That’s okay.
I understand.
Not cranky, just being direct.
Sorry you feel that way.
Links would be nice. I don’t remember “all but” calling you a liar. If I thought you were lying, I’d say it.
Have a gooder!
Back to the issue of critics of Quixtar/Amway Global as I read the increasingly biting comments on this thread I couldn’t help but think of the many public franchise owners I worked with as a CFP and the many biting conversations they had with their franchisors. The franchisors aggressively promoted their ‘proven systems’, getting prospects very excited about the success to be had with it. Clearly they were selling…that’s what businesses do. And regardless of the hype or even the degree of honesty employed in the selling of their various business concepts the results generated by franchisees were always the same. The very few who did what it took to succeed did and the many who didn’t do what it took to succeed didn’t. Those who succeeded passionately supported their respective franchisors, those who didn’t succeed quit and (many of them) vehemently criticized and complained about the franchisor. Each business franchise model had good and bad aspects, some had horrible issues to deal with but it was the same deal for every franchisee. The difference in results was the difference in work ethic. I think it is the same for our business.
Rocket, I remember the conversations you had with Bridgett on OZ. How come you can’t and you were a part of it? Amazing (well, no, typical actually!) that you expect other people to have to provide information about themselves, again and again, yet you ignored requests, again and again, to provide any info about yourself.
Why is that?
On another note, there was some discussion between pokerpooner and bridgett about WWDB diamonds and buying houses “cash”. Pokerpooner claimed it was common for WWDB diamonds to imply they buy everything, including houses, cash. Bridgett disagreed. I asked pokerpooner to provide an MP3 backing up his assertions. He refused. He asked Bridgett to provide MP3 backing up her side.
She has done exactly that, providing me with an MP3 of a WWDB CommuniKate message with pokerpooner’s own upline Diamond talking about how he rented his house up to EDC because it made sense for him to do so, his reasoning for doing so, and of course advising that it depends on individual circumstances and opportunities.
Ouch,
Compelling testimony! Hard to deny that.
Bridgett, thanks for sharing your personal info. Even though others are afraid to do so. Something about transparency that is refreshing and debunking, all at the same time!
Are there any “current” critics out there? It seems like all the dialogue keeps rehashing the same negative stuff from 10+ years ago. I know that people have had unfortunate experiences in this business, but why can’t we talk about all the improvements going on? All the positives that the transformation is already providing. The new products, the added bonuses, the re-emphasis on building a balanced, profitable business.
Oh, thats right. We’re dealing with critics: A person you expresses an unfavorable opinion about something. (And nothing more)
Just once, I’d like to see a true critic share their positive experiences they had with this business. With no strings attached. No snide comments. And no buts. Just a couple lines of what they liked. And if they can’t, than that proves they don’t know the business that I know.
TWS,
I appreciate your request & will try to respond genuinely and honestly.
First, you want me to share something positive. I can honestly say that I have a positive (accurate) understanding of this business.
Second, you want my comments to be current. I will do the best I can but that is difficult because the numbers that Amway/Quixtar chooses to make public are always incredibly outdated.
For example: On Thisbiznow website, Amway/Quixtar is still using numbers based on data gathered in 2001. I know of no other company in America that shares its statistics of success etc. with numbers that are 7 years old. But as a reference point, Thisbiznow reports that in 2001 the average IBO earned $115 per month (gross).
Thisbiznow also shows that in 2005 over 370,000 IBOs earned $370.1 million dollars in bonuses. If you divide 370,100,000 by 370,000 - you find the average IBO earned $1000 per year. Divide that by 12 and you will clearly see (according to Amway/Qixtar itself) that in 2005 the average IBO earned less than $84 per month (gross). That is 40% less earned by the average IBO in 2005 than in 2001.
I would love for Amway/Quixtar to give us up to date numbers. For example, they know how much IBOs earned in bonuses in 2007 and they know how many IBOs shared in those bonuses. They could provide those numbers right now. But they don’t.
So I positively understand that while the WWDB Diamonds were constantly telling us how QUixtar was exploding and how fired up they were - the business was actualy in many ways in decline. Then Amway/Quixtar declared that the name “Quixtar” never really caught on and they are going back to their Amway
name in hopes of gaining name recognition. I know for certain that the IBOAI Board denounced this and voted a no confidence vote in Amway. However, the IBOAI Board (in public) tells such a different story. The site talks about how excited they are about the transformation.
So for me, this is more of the same kind of deceptions that IBOs are continually presented with.
Also, according to Amway/Quixtar .1683% “active” IBOs reach platinum level. That is 1 in 600. And .0120% reach diamond level. That is 1 in about 8,300.
Those are not impressive numbers. And I do not believe that only 1 in 8,300 actually put in the time and effort. I believe there are many hard working moms and college kids who give it their all, get on CORE; put money into the pockets of kingpins for Kate, Premier, CDs, functions, etc. It is not that they are not trying; it is that the odds are stacked incredibly against success in this business and the constant deception from stage.
Finally, new IBOs are told to trust their upline (their upline diamonds are mentors and teachers who want them to succeed). When the mentor/teacher who is to be “always trusted” is profiting from selling you the tools that he says are the key to your success, there is a very blatant and obvious conflict of interest.
WWDB teaches that CORE is necessary for success. Puryear, Duncan and the rest of the diamonds will never provide Kate, Premier, CDs, functions etc. at cost. Instead they profit from their downline. Why? Because if there was no profit in tools, their Amway/Quixtar income wouldn’t be worth the time. And if their Amway/Quixtar income is enough to set them “financially free” then why do they have to make even more profit off of the people who are trying to just get by who they are supposed to care about so much?
I have been very honest with numbers and thoughts. I hope you will be genuine in your response.
On Thisbiznow website, Amway/Quixtar is still using numbers based on data gathered in 2001.
I believe more recent data is in the QBI. Note that these statistics are partially based on a survey conducted every 5 years.
I also think you’re smarter than that John and you’re not being completely honest. You know what the statistics do and don’t say, and what is required to be judged as “active” - ie pretty much nothing. Don’t you think making $115/mth, on average, is a pretty good result for doing, o