Idle gossip from idle minds – another example of a clueless Amway critic

In the comments of the post More Clueless Amway Critics, one of the subjects of the post, Amway critic pokerpooner, decided to add his side of the story into the comments. In my opinion all he successfully did was prove the point of the post – he’s clueless about the Amway business, how it works, and it’s potential as a business. Later in the discussion, when I asked him to provide some evidence to back up some claims he was making, he simply became abusive. In my experience Amway critics often require supporters of the Amway business to be able to provide incontrovertible proof of any claims. Indeed on more than one occasion I’ve been told that Amway Corporation is not an acceptable source for Amway sales data, since they’re probably lying about it. :roll: Ask them for some evidence to back up their claims however, and all of a sudden they want to change the subject.

During the discussion with pokerpooner I happened across another example of the kind of claims that Amway critics make that are clearly, and provably, clueless. Scott Larsen on his Amquix site regularly posts collections of emails he’s received from his visitors. I actually analysed several months of this once and discovered that only a third of those he posted were actually of people with a negative experience. Another third were people supporting the business (and I know he doesn’t publish all of those, since he didn’t publish one of mine) – but the remaining third or so were prospects and brand new IBOs who had decided not to join/quit because of what they had read on his site – clear evidence of the damage being caused by the Internet War against Amway. Here is an example of the kind of idle, clueless, gossip they read –

It appears that emerald Mike Waechter maybe quitely losing his Emerald ship and may have to resume his job back at Allied insurance. This is a big deal because in the fall of 2002 he had a big retirement party featuring more than 1,000 Quixtar distributors, many of who came close to disturbuting the peace of a Des Moines insurance agency.

This was part of an email from “john” that Scott Larsen published in a section headed Site Visitor E-Mail Oct – Dec 2005. Mike Waechter was an IBO in the LTD organisation, downline of double diamonds Joe & Marybeth Markiewicz. “John” even backed up his claim about the supposedly parlous nature of the Waechter business with the name of a Ruby in the Waechter downline whom John claimed had file for bankruptcy and quit Amway. Was any of this true? How would a reader know? Amway businesses do fall out of qualification, so it’s certainly plausible. There’s just one small problem for John’s credibility. You see, according to Larsen, this letter was sent sometime in October, November, or December of 2005. As readers of Achieve magazine and would soon find out, and IBOs in LTD most likely already knew – Mike & Jana Waechter didn’t fall out of Emerald qualification then: they had just qualified as new Diamonds!

Another clueless Amway critic. It’s sad so many people believe them.

182 thoughts on “Idle gossip from idle minds – another example of a clueless Amway critic”

  1. I happened to stumble onto this blog and found the conversation typical. I am a very happy, well-adjusted, hard working 39-year-old American woman and I am an IBO. I am also a member of traditional family business (computers) for 21 years.

    It seems to me many people find fault in something they don’t understand. It is like that for all things in life. Let’s recap….

    Amway Global is the supplier of product, takes care of the legal and provides the compensation. And they are extremely good at what they do and provide. If I have ever not liked something, it was not the right product, etc. it is taken care of. I use products from my business because it is my business. I wouldn’t have someone else build my computer or put it together if I own the shop. And people can’t figure out why companies are shutting down when they drive a Honda and work for Ford. Come one people.

    The you have the “System” affliation, which is in my case Network 21 (and we are accrediated). The system is so key. I can open up a computer store because I have a computer, however if I haven’t had the training, experience, sweat equity, could you image that business succeeding? The system provides the training to help you get what you want out the business (whether that is product, fellowship, $100 a month or $250,000 a year).

    The problem lies not in the system or the Amway corporation, but in people unwillingness to change the way they thinking. That is utter suicide in owning a traditional business, so why wouldn’t it apply to this business. And in fact, the “tools” I have invested in over the years, have improved my traditional business, my relationships with my family and friends. What is that worth? And who in their right mind thinks those things should be free or someone shouldn’t make a profit on them? Who invested the capital to have a product to sell, who took the risk?

    People continue to try and compare apples to oranges with this business. You can only “compare” the numbers in my mind with other MLM businesses (and there are thousands of them out there). And as far as I can tell from the people I know in Mary Kay, Sipada, and so on… there is a limited product line and they have to continue to have parties (which is ok, if that is your thing). I use my own products, I help other save time, or money, I sell a product here or there. But I get out of this business exactly what I put in both physically and mentally – if my thinking isn’t right, I can show the plan all day long with no results. The same applies to my traditional business. If my thinking is not right, it is going to be a very unproductive day.

    As far as claims or percentage or statistics, here is the reality. They can be used anyway someone wants them to be. No one is forced to do anything in this business, it is my business, not my uplines, no my downlines – it is all volunteer. And if most people truly understood how this business worked, they would know that if I am making money, dam right my upline should be making money for putting time into MY business (which I still haven’t received one bill for from them). If I am not making any money, my upline isn’t making any money from the volume or lack of volume flowing through my organization.

    The business is the fairest business I know… you can be white, black, old, young, educated, high school drop out, wealthy, barely getting by. It is an even playing field for all. We are start fresh. And quite frankly, if you are struggling with money, well, go sell a product. We have 1000s of them to choose from. Cancel your cable. Move into a smaller house. Drive an older car. You see, we all have options, it is whether we are willing to choose those options or complain about our situation. What do you do if you need money in your traditional work life, you work another hour for more pay. Seems like a fairly simple concept to me.

    I write this lengthy post simply to express to that new IBO or someone considering this business, that this can be a great business and there are great people in this business. And if you had a bad experience, that is a shame. Don’t let anyone tell you can’t or shouldn’t do anything for your family. And if you do and this wasn’t the right business for you, what the heck is the big deal. The capital is so small as compared to the options in the “real world.” We invested over $100,000 in our traditional business and didn’t take a cent out of it for 3 years. A little perspective, huh?

    Make it a great day!

  2. John,

    You are ignorant for sure. In your post where you number your ideas, are simply repeats from others. Many which were discussed, with you present in the conversation.

    You need to bring some original thought and comprehension.

  3. john,

    I have given you my position and have given you information about myself. You have yet to answer a few basic questions I asked you. As I said earlier, I thought you were sincere, but I was probably wrong.

  4. John,

    I didn’t ask you to believe me. I asked why I should believe you over these other folk.

    Previously when others made similar claims, on that occasion that WWDB taught to “pay cash”, some WWDB “critics” claimed one thing, a WWDB supporter claimed something contrary.

    I asked both for some evidence. The supporter supplied me with an MP3 supporting their position. The critics refused to supply any evidence.

    Clearly in that situation I have far more reason to believe the WWDB supporter than the critic.

    So I ask you, again, with regard your claims. Why should I (or anyone else for that matter) believe you and not them?

  5. Let me comment on some of these bullet points:

    1. There are no overhead expenses (a quote from Ron Puryear).
    Ron’s been teaching to legitimize your business to pay for CORE (expenses) before I was born. Obviously taken out of context.

    2. You don’t have to sell anything (just buy from yourselves
    and teach others to do the same).
    Personal consumption is a valid part of this business model. But so is retailing. WWDB has taught about “Making your First Circle work” for years.

    3. You can be diamond in 2-5 years if you just do CORE because
    it is a “proven system of success”.
    Harimoto, Yuen, Danzik, Tsuruda, and many more did just that. If you DO 100% CORE every month for 2 years you’ll be diamond. Most IBOs think they’re CORE, but aren’t.

    5. By inferrence (our mansions, boats and hummers are from income
    from Amway/Quixtar. (It comes from tools!)
    Tool profit is part of this business. And in WWDB is available to ANYONE willing to build their business and qualify for it.

    8. This business is exploding. (Heard that the entire
    existence of Quixtar). Quixtar now admits “the name
    never caught on”.
    This industry went through a slump just like MANY industries did. But over the past decade, many people have gone Platinum and above.

    10. This business will likely be a $100 billion business within
    5 years. (Both Puryear and Duncan).
    See above. Big difference between being optimistic and being deceptive.

    11. Then there are the truths that are not told. (Over 95% of
    IBOs will drop out with in 5 years.)
    The current renewal rate is about 35% Certainly room for improvement. This is one of the top focuses for the transformamtion

    12. Another truth that is not told. (Here is how much money we
    make from selling you books, CDs, functions, Kate, website,
    blah, blah, blah.
    Any downline IBO that asks me about tool profit, I show them a basic breakdown of the profit centers, speaking fees, etc. All Platinums and above get equal opportunity.

  6. John-
    It appears to me that you have spent WAY more time reading and listening to negative critics/blogs than you EVER did listening to your upline mentor. Granted, if what you say is actually true about your upline emerald, you can justify that. But I passed many of my upline before I plugged directly into my upline diamond. My sponsor/upline is not responsible for my success or failure. I am.

    You are correct that it was ignorant on your part to “blindly beleive” anybody. I chose to believe, but verify, what WWDB was teaching and than actually apply it. I started my business right when Quixtar launched and just finished my 5th year as a Q12 Platinum. I have made more money on a part-time basis with my business than I do at my full-time job.

    I can’t help but wonder why you keep side-stepping the question about your involvement with this business and WWDB. If you’re so convinced of your position, why not give some feedback to add to your credibilty.

    When did you get registered?
    How long were you “active”?
    How many people did you sponsor?

  7. Oh and “john”, me asking when you were an IBO is HARDLY the same as a faceless Internet persona asking me to share my 2007 tax returns online.

    Duh.

    Now everyone together, “D-E-F-L-E-C-T-I-O-N”

    ;)

  8. Bridgett,
    Is there a reason you didn’t answer my question? A reason you won’t show your 2007 Amway/Quixtar tax returns? And yes you have talked about your profit.

    IBOfightback,
    Why would I believe you and your conversations with unnamed IBOs when I have first hand experience?

  9. john,

    Bragging? Um…Have I made any income claims? Have I talked at all about what I spend my income that I generate from the Amway business on?

    No.

    I believe the last person accusing me of “bragging” was Tex. Are you now taking lessons from a gentleman who’s been banned (or his comments are moderated or deleted) from every site but his own?

    Deflection is what you are doing. Typical Amway Critic B.S.

    So you, in simple easy terms for the world to understand are full of crap.

    You refuse to give any indication of who you are,
    and
    You refuse to answer simple basic questions,
    and
    You continue to talk in generalities
    and
    You repeat lame, old, half-truth, inaccurate information that, personally, I think you have read on the Internet and have zero personal experience on what you write.

    But why should anyone believe me, huh “john”?

    What-ev-er

  10. Bridgett,
    You remind me so much of our emerald. He talked the talk for sure. Claimed he was making $10-20 thousand a month from Quxitar. Problem is his own financial declaration (in his bankruptcy case) showed he was making $3900 a month. (There was lots of credit card debt).
    You sound just like him. You talk the talk & brag about how successful you are. However, I wonder if you would be willing to share your 2007 tax returns. I doubt it. Of course, I consider the source.

    IBOfightback,
    How long have you been criticising the critics? I can assure you it is is much longer than I have been vocal with criticism. Amway may not be a scam, but when Amway watches kingpins scam people for decades and does nothing about it (to protect their income), they become guilty in my eyes.

  11. I still don’t think john was ever an IBO and therefore speaks with zero credibility.

    I already provided a link of his comments on the Amway Blog, showing very clearly, in his own words that he is a “concerned friend” of IBOs.

    And he refuses to answer basic questions, and specifities that an IBO, who has actually put effort in to building the Amway/Quixtar business, would be able to answer.

    He’s another example of people hiding behind a keyboard.

    Another example of the need to educate people on how to use the Internet effectively and not take every word as gospel.

    Consider the source, people.

    Ri-di-cu-lous.

  12. TB2IBO & Bridgett,
    TB2IBO – You are correct when you speak of my ignorance. I was ignorant because I blindly believed all the things that were taught by WWDB.
    1. There are no overhead expenses (a quote from Ron Puryear). (A
    lie)
    2. You don’t have to sell anything (just buy from yourselves
    and teach others to do the same). Spoken by many emeralds
    and diamonds at many functions. (A lie)
    3. You can be diamond in 2-5 years if you just do CORE because
    it is a “proven system of success”. (A lie).
    4. Quixtar has made more millionaires than any other company.
    (A lie).
    5. By inferrence (our mansions, boats and hummers are from income
    from Amway/Quixtar. (A lie). (It is from tools!)
    6. We don’t make money until you do. (A lie).
    7. Perfect water (makes you untippable, more flexible, blah,
    blah, blah) (Demonstrated by Hawkins and Shores) until
    Quixtar told them to knock it off). (More lies).
    8. This business is exploding. (Heard that the entire
    existence of Quixtar). Quixtar now admits “the name
    never caught on”. (Huge lie repeated over and over).
    9. Dean Kosage has been retired since age 23. A huge lie.
    He admits working like crazy as an emerald. All he did was
    quit one job to work full time selling hope and soap. He no
    more “retired from his job andmore than I retired from
    McDonalds when I was 18.
    10. This business will likely be a $100 billion business within
    5 years. (Both Puryear and Duncan). Only missed it by 99%.
    11. Then there are the truths that are not told. (Over 95% of
    IBOs will drop out with in 5 years. So if you show the plan
    to 1,000 people and get 500 to sign up, within 5 years your
    downline will be about 25 people. In other words, you will
    always be swimming upstream and if you ever quit working your
    business, it will fall apart.
    12. Another truth that is not told. (Here is how much money we
    make from selling you books, CDs, functions, Kate, website,
    blah, blah, blah.
    So you are correct, I was ignorant. But I chose to stop being ignorant. I chose to accept that the gross exaggerations and deceptions of the kingpins were hurting me & people I know. So how about the two of you? Either of you diamond in 2-5 years?

  13. TB 2 IBO,

    Excellent points. I had my own checking account at 13 years old (because I was making money, with taxes taken out, and had tax deductions and such).

    I was amazed when I was a Senior in high school, 5 year later, that
    1) Our “consumer education” class was only two weeks long (not even a full semester)squeezed in before graduation
    and
    2) In that class, most students did not know what to write on the “Pay to the Order” line on a check.

    I rememember in college, I got a credit card. When it came in the mail, I called my older sister and her response was, “Let’s break it in!”

    The fact that I didn’t have any source of income at the time to pay off anything I would charge didn’t seem reason enough to her not to go on a shopping spree.

    I think that was about the time I wised up and stopped taking advice from her.

    :)

  14. This line of dialogue and John’s apparent ignorance(not in the negative context), is exactly what new IBO’s need to hear or read.

    To make it simple when a new IBO starts a business, that business NEEDS to be separate from personal stuff.

    (Non-business owners)
    1) You earn money from your job, get taxed, used the net to buy stuff or pay bills. Those companies earn income from you, those same companies pay taxes on said income, less their deductions.

    (IBOs or any business owner)
    2) You earn money from your job (or business, Amway or otherwise), subtract your deductions (business owners), get taxed, use the net income to buy stuff from your business or pay bills. Those companies (including your own) earn income from you, they pay taxes on said income, less their deductions.

    It is NO different, or should I say, it SHOULD be no different.

    The biggest problem for new people is understanding how to separate their personal income (job or other businesses) with their Q/A business. Most IBOs, I believe, don’t set up a separate bank account for their business, or use a business credit card. They use it all on their personal check book and at the end can not differentiate personal expenses vs. business expenses. Thus, they don’t deduct properly and have no idea how their business looks (by the numbers). All they “see” is losing money vs. before the expense of running a business.

    Above all else, this single thing I believe is what needs to be taught to the newest IBOs. Even before product knowledge, how the plan works, talking to people,etc.

    It is scary the number of people I run into that do not know how to even run a check register. Or figure out a simple budget. Probably the reason the country (USA) as whole is so in debt. Sad

  15. john,

    Thanks also for your response. I appreciate being able to disagree without being disagreeable.

    I still however have a couple of questions for you because you never answered how long you were in the business. Your statement, “that the system has left many victims in its wake” is a questionable one because:

    1. I answered (I think) most or all of your concerns about taxes and such.

    2. I’ve been involved for over a decade and while I have seen many lives changed for the better, I can honestly say that I have never seen anyone’s life get “devastated” because of it. I am not saying it never happens or that it didn’t happen to you. But, when you’ve been around as long as I have, you’ve pretty much seen everything.

    3. I have talked to many former IBO’s and it’s very rare for someone to say the business hurt them financially or otherwise. In fact, many of them credit their current success to what they learned from the system. I have a former downline who now has a traditional business that is doing very well, and he credits what he learned through Worldwide for his success.

    Anyway, as you said, you can choose to respond or not. Again, I appreciate being able to dialog with you without resorting to name calling (which I admit I have been guilty of in the past) and other tactics.

    Thanks for your well wishes.

  16. Visioneer,
    I appreciate your spirit and the time you have spent commenting back and forth with me. At this point, I want to let you know that I have absolutly no expectations of you spending your time responding to me or trying to help me understand the business as you see it. Your time is yours and I have no desire to consume or waste any of it.
    With that said, let me assure you that it was not a couple of renegade upline IBOs that have so negatviely affected my life and that of several people I know. It is a system known as WWDB. It is not the past that interests me as much as the fact that the past is also the present when it comes to WWDB. It is a system that has left many victims in its wake.
    So just as you believe in the business and the system – you have the right to continue to extol its virtues through your business building, personal contacts and blog comments – I too have the right to continue to share my thoughts through blog comments, etc. If I thought things were any different today than they were when my life was devestated, I would be open to that realization. However, in my opinion WWDB today is the same people with the same exaggerations, deceptions and abusive techniques as it was not many years ago.
    So with that, I wish you the best too. You need not spend any more of your time on me. Spend your time and energy as you see fit. I will do the same.

  17. john,

    I want to apologize up front to you for what I’ll say because it seems like you might be sincere, but your logic is getting less and less logical.

    1. You can file an adjustment to your taxes for the profit you pay to yourself for retail purchases. So you won’t get taxed twice. Once again, you WON’T get taxed twice. My response is on Aug. 30 at 3:57 pm. I won’t go into the details here, any accountant can show you how to claim that.

    2. This is a business, it’s not a job! All businesses have expenses and yes you have to spend the money first to claim a deduction. Have you looked into what it costs to start any kind of business?
    In this business you can CHOOSE your expenses, I don’t blindly follow my upline’s teaching. I see if it makes sense to me first. Also, there have been times when I’ve gone on faith and followed my upline’s teaching, even when it didn’t make sense to me. What I found out was it did make sense later.

    3. You said this “And if you are paying retail to yourself, you are spending much more money than you will get back in tax write offs.”
    That makes no sense. I teach people to buy what they need. Nothing more, nothing less. If you spent too much money into your business, who’s fault is that? Please take personal responsibility for that and don’t blame your upline or the system.

    4. You also said this “So heck, why don’t I pay (out of my pocket) myself $1000 for a case of Meadowbrook.”
    Another statement that makes no sense. Again, buy what you need, nothing more, nothing less. I, and my LOS have always taught to not spend anymore than you can afford.

    If you buy what you were already buying at other stores and just switched over to your business without spending any more money, how does that cost you more?

    Finally, your last question again does not make any sense. If I choose to stop talking to you that makes me a quitter?

    As a reminder to you, I am just another rank and file IBO who has worked this business to a profitable level. I have received many blessings from this business in relationships, financially, being able to help others financially, in helping others in their personal lives, and I’ve watched MANY lives get turned around 180 degrees for the better because of their involvment in this business.

    As TWS and I have said, we’re sorry you had a bad experience, but unfortunately that’s life. Nobody is perfect and certainly this business isn’t either. Bad situations will happen everywhere, with your family and other businesses also. I had a bad experience with a car salesrep a long time ago. I’m glad I didn’t become bitter and angry and set off on negative blogs about car salesman and how unfair he was to me.

    So once again, john, as it seems you are sincere, I do pray for you and wish you the best in life.

  18. Visioneer,

    1. Show me the date of the post where you “already ansered my question about getting taxed twice”.

    2. Using money that you have already been taxed on to pay retail to yourself so you can be taxed on it again is indefensible.

    3. In order to get a tax deduction, you must first spend the money. You must first buy the CD, pay for the functions, purchase the gas, pay for the Premier, write a check for Kate…And if you are paying retail to yourself, you are spending much more money than you will get back in tax write offs.

    4. If my business shows retail profit I should pay taxes on it. I agree. So heck, why don’t I pay (out of my pocket) myself $1000 for a case of Meadowbrook. Look how that will show my business is growing and of course I should pay tax to the government on that $1,000. Visioneer, wheter you pay your self $1,000 retail for a case of Meadowbrrok of $1000 over the course of 6 months on a multitude of items, the result is the same. It is not a smart financial move. And this is what your WWDB taught! And the reason it was taught is clear, because it was clearly explained that we could use this “business income” to support our business by covering the cost of CORE.
    You can dialog with me or not. My guess is that you might just quit. Sound familiar. As you say it may not be worth the time. Does that make you a quitter?

  19. john,

    Were you ever an IBO? If you were, for how long? Your understanding of the business is severely skewed.

    1. I already answered your question about getting taxed twice from your personal use. You can file an adjustment.

    2. Your paycheck getting taxed has nothing to do with the business. It gets taxed anyway.

    3. You do know if you are building a business you can legitimately claim cd’s, travel, functions, mileage, etc. as tax deductions don’t you? I get excellent tax deductions that I never got with my job.

    4. If your business shows a profit from your bonuses and retail sales then you should pay tax on it!

    john, sorry but I really think you are so off base in your comments that its very hard to continue to dialog with you. I guess I’ll have to decide later if its worth my time.

  20. My Schedule C is “not good”?

    “Not good” is not a good phrase when you are dealing with numbers.

    It’s either accurate or it’s not. And, it IS accurate.

    john said, “Maybe an independent knowledgable accountant might be able to help.”

    Umm…I guess you forgot what I did for a job.

    :)

    LOL.

  21. No Bridgett,
    It wasn’t funky advice from a couple of people. It was taught from multiple WWDB platforms. It ws taught by multiple diamonds who only teach under the oversight of Mr. Puryear. And to be honest, you didn’t address my questions. Your schedule C “false profit” scenario is not good. However, I am not surprised as you went to WWDB Executive Planners. Maybe an independent knowledgable accountant might be able tohelp.

  22. john,

    I addressed both of your points:

    1)I addressed the fact that WWDB does not unilaterally teach to pay retail for your products.

    and

    2)I addressed your personal-use retail-profit-income-tax question.

    I’m sorry that you got funky guidance from a couple of people. It happens sometimes.

  23. Visioneer,
    Here is how it works. IBO gets his paycheck from his real job. Tax has been withheld on that paycheck and therefore the money he has in his left pocket has been taxed. Now IBO takes some of that money (that has already been taxed) and pays retail to his own Quixtar business. Now his Quixtar business shows that as profit and must pay tax on it again. It is not difficult. BOth our platinum and emerald understood this was unreasonable teaching – but guess what – they taught it any way because they said that is what WWDB was teaching. Their best excuse was that while you lose a little money, it was ok because of the encouragement of seeing your business show more pforit.
    This is absolutely what WWDB was teaching. And they said the profits should be invested into the business through the purchase of tools. If you are affiliated with WWDB in any way (and it appears you certainly are) you know they taught this.
    This is only one of many teachings of WWDB that are knowingly not in the best interest of downline IBOs.
    And yes, I did question upline often about a variety of issues. I always received the same old answer – we trust our upline and we know they wouldn’t steer us wrong.

  24. John,

    Why don’t you explain how moving money from your left pocket to your right pocket costs you money?
    I have talked to several accountants and they have said it makes sense when you explain the reasoning behind it. So I don’t know how you get your statement of “any accountant in the world.”

    Also, my question for you was not directed at this one incident but all of your concerns.

  25. rocket said, “John is one of millions of people who do not trust Amway or the opportunity.”

    Oh there you go again. LOL.

    Millions?

    rocket, stop lying.

    The number of postive or neutral people about the Amway business far outweighs the faceless critics on the Internet.

    Y’all like to give the impression that you’re bigger than you really are.

    You’re so silly. :)

  26. john,

    I haven’t heard unilateral teaching of “pay yourself retail” from WWDB in a long time.

    But, I do know some IBOs who do this and for various reasons. I personally don’t, nor do I teach it.

    I even have IBOs in my own downline who charge themselves retail on their orders.

    Regarding being taxed twice, I brought this point up to a gentleman at Exectutive Planners (the accounting division at WWDB) about two years ago.

    I explained to him how I would, if I charged myself retail, would cancel out that “false profit” on the back of my Schedule C in order to avoid paying taxes that I shouldn’t be paying since it’s personal use volume. I asked him if this was the correct way of doing it.

    He said “yes”.

    (The part on the Schedule C I’m referring to is the “cost of goods sold”. But I’m not a tax advisor, so don’t take my advice as gospel. :) )

    All that to say, if you did choose to pay retail for the products that you use and have that differential go in to your business account, if you do your tax forms right, you would not pay income tax on that false profit.

    Hope that helps.

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