The Internet War Against Amway Part II

Read part I first – The Internet War Against Amway

The Internet War Against Amway is not a traditional war with General’s directing units to attack our weaknesses (at least I don’t think so!). The war is more like the kind of “war” some religious or political fundamentalists wage. There is a relatively small number of people who believe they know “the truth” and they are obsessed with spreading this “truth” and “saving” people – and they don’t care about any innocent folk who might be hurt in the process, or the possibility that they themselves may be wrong.

Governments and their agencies such as the FTC, judges, sporting superstars, actors. and their managers, top companies and their leaders and lawyers, the UN, UNICEF, historians, business academics etc etc … thousands of these professionals have invested time and money investigating Amway – and decided to support the company. The anti-Amway obsessives however believe that these people have also somehow been duped. They believe that both Republican and Democrat adminstrations in the United States, as well as governments of a multitude of political hues around the world, have either been “bought” or duped for nearly 50 years. It’s ironic that these anti-Amway … dare I say it … “cultists” believe that they alone have “the truth” and they are “saving” people from “evil” by “spreading the word” – yet one of their charges is that Amway is a cult!

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A good example of the activities of one of these anti-amway cultists has occurred in the last few days on probably the most visited web page about Amway after Amway.comWikipedia’s Amway article. Wikipedia is an online encyclopedia that anyone can edit, an open Wiki (a similar open Wiki dedicated to Amway is at www.amwaywiki.com). Not ony is Wikipedia the second most visited site for Amway searches, according to the Edelman Trust Barometer 55% of young American’s consider it “very credible” or “extremely credible”. This is well over double the trust put in corporate advertising and nearly 20% higher than the trust put in  company websites. Only business magazines are trusted more.

The Amway wikipedia article is in my opinion quite heavily biased against the Amway business. At least 3/4 of the article refers to criticism of the business. There is no mention of the number of people it has helped around the world go into business for themselves. There is no mention of the Amway One by One program for children. No mention of sporting sponsorships. No mention of the UNESCO TransPolar model, or support for the Genoa World Expo. There’s no mention of the many awards it’s products have won and only one line referring to Amway’s well known environmental activism and UN award. There’s not even any mention of Alticor’s 2005 award for Corporate Citizenship.

Why so little positive? Well, one reason is Wikipedia’s “Conflict of Interest “, which recommends against anyone with any connection with a company from directly editing articles related to that company. Due to Amway’s business model, this means that not only should Amway employees avoid editing the article, but that by far the majority of people who support Amway, it’s affiliated business owners around the world, are not “allowed” to directly edit the article. Members of the anti-Amway cult are however free to edit as much as they please, and in my opinion they get much greater latitude when they do so. I experienced this last year when I spent several months trying to get some semblance of balance to the Quixtar article. Virtually every one of my edits was challenged, I was threatened with “banning” because I was an IBO, and thus had a financial interest in the company. Eventually I ended up in “mediation” with another editor, a Wikipedia admin no less, who continuously challenged my edits and yet let most criticisms through, usually without question. I argued, and continue to argue, that my “conflict of interest” edits on Wikipedia are covered under Wikipedia’s “Ignore All Rules ” rule, which states –

“If a rule prevents you from improving or maintaining Wikipedia, ignore it.”

The whole process was absolutely exhausting, both in the time it took and the emotional toll of having to battle against even the most innocuous and well supported edits. A number of well-known critics from QuixtarBlog jumped into the fray to attack me, making it even more difficult. The english language Wikipedia articles on Amway and Quixtar typically get well over a thousand visits a day each – why isn’t Amway in there addressing it? Why aren’t IBO leaders? Even without the “ignore all rules” rule, even Amway corporate staff and consultants may recommend changes and back them up on the “Talk” pages, and, if necessary, take issues into mediation and arbitration to get fixed – but it’s not happening! At least 30,000 people are month are getting their education about Amway from Wikipedia, and research indicates most of them may believe it.

But what of the members of the anti-amway cult? Well, for much of this week, the article was even more negative than usual. An editor going by the name of “Eric Arthur B” has been making wholesale additions to the article (they continue as I’m writing this), including personal attacks against me. The changes have violated numerous Wikipedia guidelines such as “No Original Research“, and to write in a manner of  “Neutral Point Of View ” – ie, no blatantly biased editing promoting one perspective. To give you and idea of what “Eric Arthur B” has been saying, here’s one example –

On examination of the published evidence recovered by the 197s FTC investigation, it is impossible to arrive at any other conclusion other than ‘Amway’ was an unviable, centrally-controlled system of economic exchange without a consistent source of external revenue where the overwhelming majority of contributing participants were not receiving an overall material benefit. However, the 1979 FTC ruling failed to identify this situation in accurate deconstructed terms. ‘Amway’s’ owners were, thus, caught running a mathematically impossible scheme designed to be beyond the understanding of both victims and regulators. The company was given a derisory financial penalty and allowed to remain registered in the USA when its owners promised to stop fixing prices and to enforce their own rule whereby each commission agent would have to sell at least 70% value of products on to genuine retail customers or retain at least 1 genuine retail customers.

Not only is this blatantly not NPOV editing, it’s also outright false. For a start, the author isn’t even remotely accurate about the FTC findings and the “70% rule”. I recommend you read MYTH: 70% Retail Sales Rule for an explanation of this piece of dishonesty, a common one spread by members of the anti-amway cult.

Eric Arthur B did make one error not in his favour during these edits – and that was at one stage to forget to “login” to Wikipedia to make his edits. When you do that, Wikipedia instead logs your edits under the IP address of the connection you are using. A quick check of that IP’s location (Paris), confirmed what I already suspected – Eric Arthur B is almost certainly a well known member of the anti-amway cult (wikipedia guidelines prevent me naming him) who has spent more than a decade attacking Amway on the Internet, as well as heavily lobbying organisations such as the DTI/BERR in the United Kingdom and elsewhere.

Perhaps of more concern than the biased editing, and the several thousand readers who have read it and probably believed it, is the almost complete lack of anyone challenging them. One user, Knervma (a critic), did write a note on Eric Arthur B’s talk page recommending he read the “No Original Research” rule, but the edits remained. Indeed a few other editors did some clean up of the text, leaving them essentially intact. By contrast, back in April I added the following text to the article, in order to provide some “balance” to the cult claims of Rick Ross and Steven Hassan –

Author and behavioural scientist Shad Helmstetter spent five years in the 199s researching Amway. In his book ”American Victory: The Real Story of Today’s Amway”, Helmstetter stated ”Working in the field of human behavior, I’ve studied the cults for many years. The Amway business is the opposite of cult psychology.”” With regard to other allegations of Amway being a cult, he replied in an interview “The old myth that Amway is a cult is supported only by people who are either misinformed or uninformed. I would like to examine their research.”

This edit was challenged by numerous editors, including a wikipedia administrator. It was claimed Helmstetter is paid by Amway (he’s not). His PhD qualifications were challenged, with editors claiming the University he claimed to attend did not exist or was a degree mill (I researched it and confirmed he had a legitimate PhD). Finally, the edit was challenged because Helmstetter wasn’t an expert on “cults” but Hassan and Ross are considered to be. Pointing out that neither Ross nor Hassan has done any direct research into Amway, and as such were by no means experts on Amway was dismissed. The only way that text was going to be allowed was if I again went to mediation. Hassan and Ross’s claims Amway is a cult remain in Wikipedia, unchallenged. I haven’t had the energy to pursue it further.

Why is there this bias against Amway, even amongst wikipedia administrators? In my opinion it’s been a self-reinforcing cycle. Wikipedia admins are by their very nature very internet savvy. Where do they get their education? The internet. What does the Internet say about Amway? Well .. you already know the answer to that. This “cycle” has also been evidenced in other areas. DMOZ, a large internet directory owned by AOL and used by Google, Yahoo and others in helping evaluate the importance of websites, refuses, apart from a handful of corporate sites, to list any websites supportive of Amway, including Amway Wiki , Amway Watch , and this site, The Truth About Amway. In contrast, they have an entire section devoted to “opposing views”. Several months ago, major blog host WordPress deleted a blog started by a UK ABO to discuss the developments in BERR vs Amway UK. Their reason? They don’t allow blogs that are supportive of MLM. Of course blogs like “Quixtar is a cult”, complete with posts and images aligning Quixtar with the Nazi’s, are perfectly acceptable.

Where did the DMOZ editors and WordPress administrators get their education about Amway and MLM? The internet.

Wikipedia is a highly popular resource, considered a credible source of information by most people. In the 2 or 3 years I’ve been monitoring the Amway related articles (an easy thing to do), I’ve never seen a single thing challenged or a change recommended by a representative of either Amway or IBO leaders and organisations. Indeed I’ve seen almost no effort by rank-and-file IBOs either. I left Eric Arthur B.’s edits on Wikipedia for several days to see what would happen. No response from Amway or anyone else defending Amway. There is nothing in Wikipedia rules stopping this, though there may be some hoops to jump through (such as submitting all changes via “talk”) but surely the investment needed to fund someone to do this would be a fraction of the cost of even one part of the current “reputation” initiatives, with potentially greater return?

A few thousand people, every day, read wikipedia articles on Amway and Quixtar, and they believe them. In the last month perhaps millions of people have been exposed to the “Now You Know” campaign. Some of them were intrigued and would have done a perfectly sensible thing in the 21st century – hopped on the internet to research further. With a somewhat skeptical view of the corporate ad, they would have googled and visited the company website – again with skepticism. Then tens of thousands of them, perhaps hundreds of thousands, visited Wikipedia, a source they probably trust far more than the company website and company ads. Then amquix, and alticor/amway/quixtar sucks etc etc etc ….

For them, the millions spent on “Now You Know” didn’t improve Amway’s reputation – it damaged it further. The anti-amway cultists won another skirmish, and little effort was made to stop them. How many honest, professional, hardworking Amway Business Owner’s were hurt?

Comment below or Discuss this post on Amway Talk

139 thoughts on “The Internet War Against Amway Part II”

  1. it’s rlly funny because Amway’s wikipedia article in spanish is not that controversial and they did mention all the prices and the foundations Amway has.

    1. There’s a cadre of anti-MLMers on the english wikipedia that make it very difficult to say anything positive about MLM or MLM companies. It took me many months of exhausting battles to get the Amway article there in to some semblance of balance.

  2. Well, you know what they say. The people that slam Amway would bitch if they got hung with a new rope.
    I have seen many companies go out of business after the Kids take over. Amway hasn’t. Obvious reasons.
    I have worked for 9 Airlines. All went out of business. Poor management.
    There were always bad apples in that bunch also.
    I figure if I put in the time or even a fraction of the time that I put into being a Captian on a B-747, I will get good results and no one can lay me off, down size me, park the airplanes ect.
    Nough said, get on with it.
    Everyone deserves to know what we have to offer.
    Web master keep on putting good honest info. out and it will severe you and all of us well.
    Your doing a fine job so far. Stay as professional as you have been.

    Mike Radford

  3. Hi Jeremy,

    First with regard “rocket”, no insinuation about his language was meant by me. Heck, I’m an Australian, and you know what our “english” is like :) So my apologies for any misinterpretation.

    Regarding why products aren’t in stores, that’s not at all an offensive question, it’s a perfectly sensible one! To answer it requires asking you a question – how do you decide what to buy when you go to a store? For me, I rarely sit and make a decision in the store, it’s usually a brand I know and am familiar with. If I do make a decision in the store, I compare what I can have the ingredients or value, and generally make a decision with price weighing heavily.

    But what if you have a product where the average person simply doesn’t have the knowledge to judge it’s value from an ingredients list? Or a brand they’ve never heard of?

    If it cost more, would you buy it?

    Probably not. You need “the story” told – what’s the value proposition for you, the consumer? You need to understand why even though the price may be higher than a competitor, the value to you may even better again.

    There’s really only two ways to tell that story, one is through mass market advertising, the other through sales people who can tell the consumer the story and explain the benefits. The first requires an awful lot of $$$ spent up front, and for some products (like nutrition) may not be effective at all. In the second situation, the manufacturer occurs only minimal expenses until a sale has already been made. For a new style of product (like Amway’s concentrated cleaning products where in the 60’s) it’s a effective way for a new company to break into an existing marketplace. For somewhat more complicated stories, like the Nutrilite story a sales force in the field is likely a better way to market. Indeed, Nutrilite’s sales are three times the size of it’s nearest competitor, so clearly it works!

    Hope that goes at least part of the way to answering your question.
    /ibofb

  4. You guys will probably get offended with this question, but i’m gonna ask it anyways.

    Notwithstanding the business model you Amway associates use, why is it that these products aren’t sold in typical fashion (i.e. sold in retail stores rather than marketed and distributed complexly)? I’ve never tried any Amway products, but if these products really were so good, could they not stand to be sold right next to their competition in retail stores?

    BTW ibofightback, i’m Canadian, and I don’t really appreciate you insinuating that “rocket” speaks foreign beause of where he’s from. Us Canadians speak English quite competently, if I do say so myself. I read his posts, and without passing judgement on his claims, his grasp of the English language is far from foreign, especially considering the post put up in defense of your products from “b”, who seems to have failed to grasp a proper understanding in the rules of spelling and grammar.

    P.S. – Not an attack Amway, you guys or the products, as i’ve no experience with them. Just a critical question…

  5. I read the information on Multi-Level marketing on wikipedia and was shock to find how heavily biased the article was against the MLM industry. It was all negative. All sources of information referenced in the article were critic’s websites.

    I would not be surprised if the article was written by one of the well known MLM critics.

    It seems that principles like objectivity and balanced commentary meant very little to the author(s).

    1. Yes, I’ve had it on my to do list to get in to that article and fix it, but my experience from doing the same with Amway article was that it’s extremely time consuming and mentally and emotionally exhausting. The anti-mlm zealots challenge everything that’s “pro” and will defend to the death anything “negative” even if it doesn’t abide by Wikipedia policies.

      If anyone cares to hit “donate” on the right and send me a thousand bucks, I’ll get to work :D

  6. random comments

    “Our laundry detergent is also biodegradeable and still gets top cleaning effectiveness from a national consumer magazine.”
    —>Do you have a source for this?

    a lot of peronal care product quality is in the eye or feel of the beholder. If someone likes it better, good for them, even if it’s a bit more (unless they need to economize). Unless they live in a cave, consumers can price shop. However, claims about effectiveness or effectiveness per use should be backed up with facts.

    read about Amway/Quixtar ~5 years ago, when approached by a co-worker. Not my cup of tea, since I’m not really a people person. That was independent of the fact that I ran across anti-Amquix sites back then.

    Seems like nowadays, training materials could be provided online for next to no $.

    Reminds me of “traders” selling courses to teach one to get rich trading X (options, commodities,stocks). Lots of people buy those course and lose, too! …and one wonders if the teachers really make their $ from trading, or selling courses. Some of these “teachers” get sanctioned by the regulators, though; seems MLMs are less regulated?

    I remember one guy on a amquix site had a (claimed) profitable Amway business selling the cleaning supplies to small businesses. He was selling convenience.

    1. Search this site for “consumer reports” and you’ll find their evaluation of SA8. Formatting is a bit messed up after I redid the site but the info is there.
      BTW – many of the top Amway leadership were not “people persons” either. They learned to be because they wanted the results. As for income, check out the average bonus payouts per level published by Amway – that’s just Amway income, nothing extra from selling training and motivational materials or hitting the speaking circuit or investing or anything else.

  7. Hearing you guys talking to Rocket has been very interesting and hearing of his painful past experiences as an ex ibo has been enlightening. I was in Network 21/ILD about 15 years ago,I left, because at the time I had a Lot of personal demons to excorcise, now I’m older, and “possibly wiser?” I can now see that Amway is a good idea after all. Not “all” of the Anway products are brilliant but there again neither are all of Wallmarts. Even as a IBO buying Wholsale for personal use beats paying retail any day. I Know SA8 is green but is it also Slave free & fairtraded, I believe I saw a post saying that no animals are harmed or used in lab testing products is that correct?

    1. G’day Kiwi Prodigal! We’re not bothering with Rocket any more, his posts now automatically go into the spam bin without me even seeing them. He’s made it clear he knows what he knows and no evidence to the contrary will even be considered!

      You are correct re animal testing. Amway removed all animal testing in the 80s. They said at the time the only situation where that might not be true is if the government required them to do animal testing and submit the findings to the in order to be allowed to sell a product. I’m not aware of any situation today where that is the case, best to ask Amway.

  8. I love the Amway soaps. There is nothing on the market that cleans our clothing better. Well, except the soap they discontinuted called Gelzyme. That stuff was amazing. But a protest from a VERy small minority got Quixtar/Amway to ditch the product. I love it and never needed any other products to do laundry. I never had to use prewash, bleach, water softners etc. when I was using Gelzyme. ;o( sad that it is gone. I don’t know what all the fuss about the company it. I saw there inticement. I said no. I just want product. Why blame them if you choose to not like how they do business. Amway is no different than Tupperware, or Pampered Chef. Get off their backs. This company has a 100% money back guarantee. I can’t find another one out there like it. I love this company. Easty to shop and it comes to my front door. I don’t ever have to wait on others.

  9. This is an interesting article … one of the statistics pointed out in Part I was of particular interest to me. The number of people searching the internet for information about Amway/Quickstar, etc.

    That statistic alone should tell anyone that there are a HUGE number of people trying to be recruited into the business. Is that a bad thing? No. To anyone considering entering the business, as I am, it’s an indication of how difficult it is going to be to “make it big”. It’s an indicator or how much effort I’m going to have to put into growing a business IF I decide to “join”.

    I consider all points of view helpful in my search for the truth about Amway and Quickstar’s opportunities. I’m sure there are those that do well, and I’m sure there are those that don’t. It’s all about how committed you are to growing your business and the willingness to put forth the effort. There’s no free ride in any business venture.

    Thanks for writing these articles. I found them very informative and useful. Good job.

  10. I am an IBO. Been one for 2 years. Make a little money. Love the business. Can’t stand the negative garbage. My Uncle tried to tell me about losing money. Look, losing $100K on a home forclosue is losing money. Spending $20K+ on college tuition, etc and dropping out by year 3 is losing money. Starting a traditional brick and mortar business for $80K and never breaking ground is losing money.

    Even if an IBO spends two years in the biz, $4K in business support, and only makes $1000 and decides to quit. That IBO is surviving. Any person on this post could take a $5K hit and recover next year. But yet, thousands of individuals in the above scenarios take place every year, exceeding ten fold the amount of IBO’s that “lose” money…

    You know what, I hate arguing with idiots. I’m done. I used to argue with people, but those bettering themselves and living life, working full-time, and spending an extra 10+ hours a week building their business, really don’t have time to worry about the idiots. I have been frustrated with dozens of prospects getting blown out by negative posts. But you know what, who cares, I’ve still sponsored 25+ people in 2 years, still have over 10 doing volume, and still make $500 a month. And that will probably triple before the year ends. So, why waste time on non-productive garbage!

    1. Wow dude are u really making 500 a month dats great dude congrats im 17 so I cant join amway yet but my dads in it n ive been learning everything about it since 15 n this business is great …not like other mlm like organo gold really a coffee dat gives u good health? A load of crap ..dude congrats man dont give up…are u almost going to become platinum?

  11. Hello,

    i was introduced to this business in california but i live in texas and i can’t really keep in touch with my upline, how can i get more information about the business where i live, such as opens or conventions nearby? i would also like to introduce people i know to Amway with this…

    1. Ur organization should have a website showing all the seminars location. .n it is very possible to help people join ur business here in texas …never give up its a great company ..if u need help check rhe interne t

  12. If only this article was on the very first page of all those google searches or wikipedia (which strikes me as odd to have it be claimed as “credible” since very little to no teachers/educational institutions particularly accept information based on such a source.) I myself remained skeptic for many many months until I attended Spring Leadership 2009 with my friend.

    To those interested in knowing and willing to judge for themselves as oppose to some random site, please allow me to say that AMWAY Global, especially since its association with World Wide Dreambuilders, has made great strides towards making success easier to obtain. However, many people are just not ready to exit their comfort zone–a task necessary to reach one’s goals in this business. That is why many people fail. What’s worse? Many see/experience that and denounce the business from those failures. AMWAY Global is not a get-rich quick scheme, nor is it a model doomed to fail in an illegal scheme. It is YOUR business. It is a job, but it is one without limits: your pay is not pre-determined(salary) but rather dependent on persistence and effort.

    To any opposition, simply say: what are you offering me that’s better? Where else can I pass those above me? What are you offering me that provides revenue on what I have done versus what I am doing? AMWAY IBOs are not all, if any, salespersons, but traffic drivers. We allow others to be financially free if they’re ambitious enough. It is not easy, it is not idealistic. The cost: fight human nature, the misanthropic mediocre trying to break you down before they themselves look bad.

    For those against: keep your irrelevant ad hominemn away and debate me.

    For those for: prove them wrong.

    For everyone else, the bottom-line: Simply put, can you: stop rooting for those who do not even know your name? Have a dream and try to fulfill it? Do something new often? Be teachable? Get hurt again and again? Stop making excuses? If not, then this business is not for you. If so, it’s only a matter of time before you can be financially free and finally living out your dreams.

  13. Well i have to say that after reading all of this I still want to go to the informational on in two days. I was getting a little sceptical due to the number of hate sites. I hope to give this a good go. I am very excited about the fact that I can buy these products and that I will get something in return for them. I also know quite a few people that would be interested in something of this nature and so that would be some help as well. If you all have any advice you can e-mail me or just comment back and I will check back here.

    Thanks!
    Dustin

    1. Actually Dustin, given the company is 50 yrs old and tens of millions of folk have given it a go at some stage, the number of “hate sites” is actually pretty small! Pity it doesn’t look like that to the casual searcher :)

      Advice? Simple – Treat it like a business.

    2. Everything in the world will have a good reviews n also have very bad review s ..ive seen so many hate sights for amway ..some ppeople really hate amway n talk crap about it..but u just have to ignore all the bs n focus on building ur business n if u try hard enough u could reach the goal ur looking for..

  14. I did a quick comparison between the Amway products (from a catalog I had lying around) and similar products my family use in our home, and in three out of four cases the Amway product is less expensive. Whether the Amway product is as good as the local “Lever Brothers” product remains to be seen, but so far the samples seems to suggest they are at least as good as the competitors. Plus, I HATE supermarkets, delivery to your door is cool.

    In this country we have numerous Loyalty Programs. For example, I have a “Fanatics card” for my local book store (Exclusive books). The books are priced much the same as other book stores, but if I buy my books at this store, I get points and a voucher at the end of the month. I can also order a book online and fetch it at the store. For this reason, I buy most of my books at this store. However, they have also teamed up with a local Movie importer (Nu Metro) who runs a number of Cinema’s. I can also get points for watching a movie at any of these cinema’s, but the competitor (Ster Kinekor) is cheaper, so I don’t bother.

    Insurance companies now do the same thing: They offer some sort of loyalty bonus. If there is any business where this will work it is insurance, as there is just about no loyalty in short term insurance.

    There is also another MLM in this country, called Balltron. I am familiar with their business plan, but opted out because it involves a lot of hard work, and I’m not really a sales person, nor do I have that much time to spare. I don’t know if their business plan changed much, but they had way less in the form of loyalty bonuses last time I checked.

    My Wife and I will likely join for the simple reason that this seems to be pretty similar to other loyalty programs in this country, and because she already uses Artistry (the only similar product is one by Clinique, which is priced similarly). In other words, even if I don’t sell a single product (ie 100% personal use) it still makes financial sense.

    While I agree that duping people into buying overpriced products is bad, I don’t really see the products as being overpriced, and if the product is indeed overpriced, nothing stops me from buying it elsewhere, or even quiting the whole thing altogether (which destroys the”cult” argument).

    It is unfortunate, however, that Amway has opted not to have much of an internet presence. I spent a week researching this and only happened on this blog yesterday.

    Interestingly, Mr. Larsen’s site contains so many well-worded letters from Amway supporters that it turned out to be a much more useful pro-Amway tool than I think he realises :-)

  15. ibofb – Thank you for this site. There is so much negative out there about this business that it’s refreshing to find a site that has good things to say.

    All of Rocket’s comments seem extremely emotional and I just wonder where that comes from. I will never understand this.

    My wife an I became IBOs back in about 1994 and we “played Amway” until about 2001 or so but we didn’t do anything. We started to say that the business failed us but we were also only in our early 20s with no life experience. We let our membership lapse until about a year and a half ago because we realized that we really missed the products and with things going the way they are economically we needed to change something. We looked back at what we did before and decided that we failed because of us not because of the business. So here we are back in business and loving the new system. The online business model with drop shipping is so easy to get people excited about. Clients are lining up to buy from us because they can’t find products that even come close. They love the XS and the Perfect water as well as the protein shakes and meal replacement bars. there is nothing like this anywhere so people like Rocket need to get on one and just go away so the rest of can live in peace and prosperity.

    One more thing, this is a business and anyone who treats it like a business will realize that we have control over all aspects regardless of what the up line tells us. If you don’t want to do what they teach then don’t, but you also have to expect that you will not be as successful as those who have done it before you.

  16. So, as a curious outsider, it’s interesting how ibofightback supports arguments with concrete facts and rocket does not. Rocket’s arguments sound very immature, obviously foreign. But hey, good job with your english! I’m proud of you. I have friends in Quixtar who are making money, not gobs mind you, but an extra ten grand a year is not bad.

    1. lol! Thanks for the endorsement Cobyjak. Rocket is indeed “foreign”, we all are depending who’s talking! :) But alas, I believe his first language is english … he’s Canadian.

  17. I have just become an ibo, and I am personally glad for a site like this, which has calmed some of my initial fears of learning more about the opertunity provided to me by being an IBO within Amway.

    Some of these arguments back and forth, though often heated, are a good fair view showing both the “questioning” as well as the “reply” to all posts, I challenge any of those who “overgeneralize and or defame” Amway to offer anything close to this perspective, the challenge to those who are against Amway, to offer, not just mechanical replies and emotional responces to Amway’s business structure and or system.

    I offer this explanation to any sceptic,

    If i were a distributor of product (lets say foodlion)
    looking for someone to open new stores in a location, so that I would have more access to sell my product,
    would any one of you have any responce to my doing that?

    and if when I have found someone to open a store who could complain when I compensate the owner for helping drive consumers to the store(to buy my product)

    now lets reduce the overhead cost,
    now insted of purchasing land, building a building, hiring employees,

    all of that now equals 0

    and insted I offer the store owners a greater incentive, to find other store owners like themselves so that I can have my product more acessible to consumers

    and why are there people upset with the idea that when a store owner or owners drive consumers to buy my product, that I compensate them for their efforts?

    This is in essence, the Amway buisness system.
    -x

  18. hi guys,

    it feels good to read all these articles on this website. I have recently joined as an IBO. I am understanding the business model and i think by putting in honest efforts, doing smart work and educating people about it and its products we can develop good business.

    I am not good at marketing and feel that i am at disadvantage due to it, but i seriously want to learn how to do it.

    I would appreciate if you could point me to some resources..

    I have already make a note of the sites likes yours and the others like Amway Wiki, Amway Watch, Amway talk..

    1. One of the great things about the Amway business is that it’s virtually all skill, not talent. Talent you are born with, skills you can learn. Some people come into the business with higher levels of skill, even talent, in some areas than others, but anyone can learn all the skills necessary. Knowing what to focus on and what to prioritise is a difficult issue, as it’s likely to be different for different people. This is why most of the “systems” recommend sitting down with you upline. setting your own goals, and working with them to decide which areas to focus on. I could too easily recommend some book to you that I think is fantastic – but might be completely inappropriate for you, your goals, or your Amway market. This is one reason why there’s also usually a “no-crosslining” recommendation – don’t get advice from folk who don’t know your specific situation.

      So, in short, I recommend chatting to your upline! I’m sure they can recommend some great books on people skills and marketing that will help you.

  19. Those comments are long! Whew! anyway, i heard one diamond say that since our products help us have optimal health, there will come a time that most of the world’s population are IBOs, because the rest who buy cheap and synthetic products would be dead. :-) Of course, that’s just a joke.

  20. Thanks Starfish for summing this up very nicely. I’m home sick today and was able to follow here from @ibofb’s convo with @AmwayGlobal, otherwise I don’t know if I would ever have had the time to find this.

    ibofb, I’ve read this and the previous post (partI) and all I can say is I’m so grateful for the work you’re doing on our behalf and I think it’s admirable. I can only imagine what the wikipedia experiences mus have been like. I’ve seen Bridget on the occasions that I can get on over at the opportunity zone and while I’m home, I hope to get over to her site as well.

    What Starfish says “I want to make a difference in my own little world, in my own little team,” kind of informs my thought process on how to approach this. I feel as though if I can tell a prospect of mine (wholesale side, not a client) to Google me (http://twurl.nl/ighir2) then I’m to some degree doing my part. But in light of your series of posts here, I’m re-evaluating if it’s really enough.

    Bottom line is, thanks.

    1. Hi Jeff,

      Thanks for the feedback. On a positive note but with the above posts in mind – googles for Amway or Quixtar broke through the 1,400,000 last month, so interest in the business is growing enormously! But there’s still a lot to be done for what they find … particular with vanilla “amway” searches. What I’d ask folk to do is just start a blog. Be real, be positive, and link to other positive Amway sites and stories where relevant. Do it for you and your team, but keep in mind the goal of improving the story google tells about us. Just running our own sites without helping other sites won’t change that. Sites like Amway Watch and Amway Wiki are great “neutral” sites to promote. AmwayWiki is now my most popular site, and it’s interesting that when people find it – they stay there. Last month the average visitor read 9 pages, which is 4 times the net average for a new visitor. Mostly they get their looking for info on people – googling the diamonds they hear about or meet. So if you can throw in 20 minutes there occasionally with info on your team and upline, that would be great too!

      It only requires posts a couple of times a week to keep it moving.

  21. Oops! Haha!! I actually said I do not have the time to time. sorry about that. I meant I do not have the time. Good night.:)

  22. Thank you for the time you’ve spent in posting truths about Amway. Thank you for that heart in making a difference in the lives of millions. When I first read the article, I wanted to discuss the matter with my sponsor whom I am working closely with because many of my prospects are internet savvy. However, having seen the long exchanges…the battle right above this message, I found one more reason why IBOs would rather not be proactive in the internet battle.

    Some reasons, some of which you have mentioned are as follows:
    1.Leaders are very much focused on their goals. Why spend time trying to convince negative people when there are a lot of others who are there looking for us and need the opportunity the company offers? We don’t want negative people in our teams, do we? We’re looking for learners… people who research well… those who do not just listen to people who have failed but also care to listen to those who have succeeded. After all, if our children are to be doctors, we don’t want them to learn from med school drop outs but from successful doctors, don’t we?

    Thus, our leaders just live with whatever negatives non-IBOs believe in and do their best to share the blessings the Lord has provided them through the company.

    2. Yes, indeed, we do not have time. The reasons IBOs are building the business are that we want to have more of either time and money… or both. In fact, this might be the only time I will be able to post here. Please forgive me.

    As for the discussion about Walmart, there’s no point of comparison. They have different visions and business models.Walmart stores just want to sell affordable items that even the poor can buy. Amway is into cost-effectiveness and providing people with quality life. (People can also earn through their purchases. Moreover, they can have passive income.) Even if household products may appear more expensive, they’re concentrated and can be used for a longer period of time. Moreover,with the broad spectrum of products and markets that Amway has, people can prioritize the items they really need.

    For instance,I’d like to invest in my health. To me, it is a need. Nutrilite products are very affordable even in the third world country where I come from. Please note that from 2005-2008, Nutrilite was awarded Reader’s Digest Asia Superbrands/ Trusted Brands (100% voted by consumers).Our family has seen the effects of the different Nutrilite products. My father, a doctor,together with my mother who is a pharmacist and an orthoptist, has studied the formulation of different products and is now very passionate about Nutrilite. He had tested the products on himself first, then our family before he even shared them with his patients. Even my husband has seen their effects on him when he had two jobs (an 8-hour job and a 6-hour job).

    I’m sure Rocket is a good person who feels protective of others. I respect your opinions. I just have this to say though…The business works. (In our third world country, Amway grew by 74% from Nov 2007-Nov 2008 just when companies were and still are closing down. The company will turn 50 this year.) Again the business works. Our leaders are living testaments to this fact. The question is whether people will work the business or not.

    Our leaders are definitely different. They’re exceptional professionals, farmers, housewives, etc. who have all of the following: vision, hard work, focus, discipline, and a heart for others. Because of those, their efforts have paid off. They’re now enjoying both time and money.

    I cannot change the world. I do not have the power.I will not be able to let others see the way I see Amway through the internet. I do not have the time to time nor the skills; but as soon as I finish this, I will take a rest, wake up early, because I have a social responsibility to get good at the business and study more. My simple dream is to be able to spend more time with my family when I won’t have to work long hours anymore. I want to make a difference in my own little world, in my own little team, be able to reach out to people who do not just have dreams but even to those who only have nightmares.

  23. No business is perfect. And about pricing? If you want the best products or services anywhere you go, you are going to pay top dollar for the best. Just like the pharmacy If you want the best medication you have to pay top dollar, but if not you have the choice to buy cheap ones. Also dont blame the business, blame uncle sam the greedy one. And also all businesses are all about making money, so face reality. If you can do better, lets see it?

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