Tuesday night I was at an Open Plan, the presenter did a great job, but he did one thing that irritates the heck out of me and in my opinion is problematic and potentially dishonest. What did he do? Well, as is unfortunately not uncommon, when explaining the various benefits of becoming an Amway Business Owner (ABO), one he promoted was the idea that “you’ll save 30% on stuff you’re already buying”. Leaving aside the issue of whether saving money is a sensible way to promote starting a business or not, this is a problem, because for many people sitting in the audience it is at best misleading, and indeed usually completely false.
The idea behind this claim is that as an ABO, you get to buy Amway products from Amway at “wholesale price“, approximately 30% discounted from the recommended retail price. If you are an existing client of an Amway business owner, purchasing Amway products from them, then you will indeed save 30%. If you’re buying competitive products from elsewhere that are priced about the same or more than the Amway products at retail pricing, then, yes, you will indeed save 30% or so.
But how many people are? Amway’s two major product lines are Artistry and Nutrilite. Both are award winning brands and, in my opinion, excellent value. However …. Artistry, for example, has been independently judged as competing in the “prestige” cosmetics and skincare category along with other well known brands such as Estee Lauder, Clinique, Lancome, and Chanel. In general, if you compare Artistry to these products, Artistry is cheaper. If you’re buying these products now, then switching to Artistry as a retail client will likely save you money and switching to these products as an ABO will save you even more than 30%.
So where’s the problem? Most folk aren’t buying cosmetics of the quality of Artistry, Estee Lauder etc. For them to switch to Artistry might get them a better quality product, and even, in my opinion, get them better value for money – but it’s likely to cost them more money than they are spending now.
Similarly with Nutrilite products. Many folk take no nutritional supplements at all. Of those that do, most are buying cheap synthetic substitutes, nowhere approaching the quality and effectiveness of Nutrilite organic, plant based, products. Unless you’re purchasing high quality supplements, generally only available from Nutrilite or other direct sales companies, then joining Amway is not going to save you money.
We can look again and again at different Amway brands. Satinique hair care products are fantastic, I wouldn’t buy anything else. But they’re salon quality products, not the $2 shampoo you can get down the local ‘mart. SA8 washing powder beats every other washing powder hands down. It’s better for your clothes and better for your health, but at full retail price it’s also a little more expensive than most other brands. Some brands, like the LOC concentrated cleaning products, are both best of breed and will save nearly everyone money, but the reality is that, overall, Amway products are not the cheapest, and neither do they aim to be. What they are is some of the best quality products in the world, at an excellent price, offering great value for money.
Promoting “savings” as a reason to register as an ABO is not a sensible way to build the business. In our case, on Tuesday night one of our downline had a guest along, checking out the business, and I sat with him afterwards. One of his first questions was about the prices and how much he would save by joining. To make things worse, the first product he asked about was Body Series Liquid Hand Soap, in our market one of the least price competitive products. This did give me an opportunity to explain the benefits of concentration, and the quality of Amway’s products, but in his case the presenter’s claim that he would ““save 30% on stuff he’s already buying” simply wasn’t even close to true. It immediately makes the prospect concerned about what else the presenter said that was misleading or exaggerated. Not exactly the best way to start a business relationship!
In my opinion this issue has had an even more drastic negative effect in older Amway markets such as North America and Australia. Ten years ago, when sites like Quixtar and a2k were launched, there was a lot of enthusiam for promoting the new “internet-based business”, and leaving some of the old “Amway baggage” behind. In the late 90’s and early 21st century, the clear target market for an “internet business” was the young, internet-savvy folk – university students and such. Most older folk simply weren’t yet comfortable with computers and the internet.
So Amway and Quixtar business owners, encouraged by Amway and LOA leadership, actively targeted the young, internet savvy, primarily male demographic. This leads however to a conundrum – of all the possible target markets for Amway’s consumable products, which one is least likely to be buying high quality nutritional, cosmetic, and household and personal care products? Yup – young, internet savvy males. The business opportunity was targeted to them, but, at least not until the introduction of XS Energy, the products were not. When you combine this with a common, and reasonable, teaching that as an Amway/Quixtar business owner you should “buy from yourself” and “support your own business”, this is problematic. Add on the “strategy” of building the business as a “shopping club” with few or no sales to retail customers, and it’s quite predicatably going to cause major problems.
Young people would join, excited by the possibility of an affordable internet-based business, then, as taught, change their shopping habits to Amway products. They were now spending significantly more than they were before joining, not saving money. Add on the inevitable costs associated with starting and maintaining a business, and it’s 100% predictable that many of these folk would stop after several months or so, find themselves stressed and in financial trouble, with numerous expenses having increased and, not surprisingly, not yet having built a significant enough business to be generating a profit.
So they quit building the business, and they quit buying the products.
Others of course never even got that far. They joined, or considered joining, heard the presenters tell them they’d “save money”, then asked to see the prices, and, completely predictably, discovered it wasn’t true for them. Would you want to go into business with an organisation that was being dishonest with you, right from the start?
Scroll forward a years. Is it any wonder that today, a number of these folk ended up as “critics” on the internet, with a common complaint being they spent a lot of money and the products are too expensive? Is it any wonder that few of them would remain as customers after they cease building the business? Is it any wonder growth stalled in markets that took this approach?
At that time, the Amway Products and an internet-focused Amway Business Opportunity had mutually incompatible target demographics. The only way it could work is if the business owners aren’t the focus for product sales, but instead were looking for customers who were part of the right demographic. Even then it may have been a challenge, as these potential customers were, at least 10 years ago, some of the least likely to be interested in shopping via the internet. They’d have to be personal customers – not exactly the “internet business” the budding young internet entrpreneurs signed up for.
It’s my belief that today things aren’t quite as bad. Folk in their 20s and 30s a decade ago are now in their 30s and 40s, they’re comfortable with the internet, as indeed are older folk now, and they’ve got more income to play with. Nevertheless, a significant number of prospects are still buying cheaper, lower quality products, particularly the younger generation, and this younger generation is still a popular “target” for the business opportunity. Might they like and prefer Amway’s quality products if they tried them? Absolutely. Might some of them save money as ABOs? Sure. But it’s simply not smart business to blanket promote joining Amway as way to save money on your shopping. For many folk it’s simply not true and it damages our reputation.
So please, ABOs – stop selling Amway as a way to save money
John
That’s not a correct reading of the (rather convulated) corporate history. This should be very obvious considering Quixtar, Inc is a Virigina corporation and Amway Corporation is a Michigan corporation.
Given Amway and Quixtar both operated in the US separately for a few years, it should be even more obvious.
More evidence of Bridgett’s assessment of your “sources”?
The rest of your comments have nothing to do with the fact that it was entirely correct to say Amway and Quixtar were two separate companies.
IBOfightback,
Corporate records will clearly show that Amway simply changed its name to Quixtar. It was a name change, not a new or separate business. It is the same business owners, same products, same multi level structure, etc. They tried to call it an internet business. However, each IBO has to have a password protected website which totally contracdicts “reaching the world” through the internet.
John,
While “absolutely nothing to do with Amway” is not true, “2 totally separate companies” is, or was, entirely accurate. I’m not quite sure how it stands now, when I get the chance I’ll check the corporate records.
Whose “mansions/boats/hummers” are you referring to exactly? I’ve found in the past when I’ve enquired further of people “complaining” of deceit along those lines that the “mansions/boats/hummers” could easily be afforded by Quixtar income alone by the people who actually had them.
Indeed, all of the names you mentioned – Kosage, Puryear, Head, Wolgamott, Felber could all afford pretty much anything at their levels in the business, and I mean from Amway/Quixtar income alone, they’re all EDC and higher. So where is the deceit?
It would appear that at least some of Bridgett’s concerns about the source of your attitude are entirely true. This false complaint that folk were lying about the source of their lifestyles is a standard regurgitated critbot talking point. Might be true in some cases, but clearly in the case of all the names you mentioned, it’s your accusations that don’t ring true, not their claims.
Bridgett,
How much clearer can I possibly be? I said that I was at the 2003 FED in Portland. I was there, I was listening, believing, hoping and dreaming. I listened to David Shores (he didn’t mention his hause was foreclosed on because of non-payments). I listened to Kosage, Puryear, Head, Wolgamott, Felber and all the rest. I visited with our platinum. I had lunch with our emerald (who had declared bankruptcy but never mentioned that to us). I listened to speaker after speaker after speaker remind us that the only way to succeed was to be CORE.
I watched Bill Britt dance on the stage, brag about how long it took him to walk past his house because it was so big, how the Bible teaches that God wants us to be rich. You don’t have to believe me. You can order the tapes’CDs and listen for yourself.
I was involved. I attended 2nd looks in Spokane. I set up houses for Artistry clinics. I extolled the virtues of Nutrilite.
I stood in the hallway with an emerald who told me that more people have been “saved” through WWDB than through any other Christian organization in the world. I can give you his name too. I listened to every single one of the speakers lead every new dreamer to believe that thier mansions and boats and hummers were paid for by Quixtar (which I was taught had absolutely nothing to do with Amway – 2 totally separate companies they said) money.
When I saw that it wasn’t quite working the way they said it would, I began to do a little research (just like any good business person would do) to see who our “partners in business” were. The more I researched, the more I discovered that I had been deceived. You can call me bitter, angry and whatever wlse you want. You can tell me that I am nonsensical. But you cannot change the truth that I and thousands of others have been lied to and deceived by WWDB.
I am not interested in hijacking or taking over this or any other blog. I simply express my experiences and thoughts – just exactly like you do. I choose to read yours. You can choose to read mine – or you can choose not to.
john,
It matters because, quite frankly, I think you are getting your information from anti-Amway websites, rather than first-hand knowledge.
That’s why your comments make no sense and are disjointed. It’s as if you are picking a tidbit here and a tidbit there, from third-party, uncredible sources.
That’s why I continue to ask the question as to whether or not you are or ever have been an IBO.
The fact that you don’t answer the question, well…
john,
Earlier you said why WW and Britt parted ways. The facts you gave still doesn’t give any indication that you would have some kind of inside knowledge.
As I understand it, Bill did retire for about a year. Then he came back.
Once again, are you a mind reader?
Fact: 2003 – Ron Puryear issues a KATE message stating that Bill Britt has retired. (This is a bit wierd since Britt has been one of the forefathers of the tools systems and after decades in the business he would just retire without a single retiement party, no recognition, no farewell speech). Nevertheless Puryear stated Britt has retired.
Fact: Britt never retired! Period – he never retired. Now why sould Puryear say that he did and never to this day correct his statement?
Bridgett: What I am, have been or will be in this business has nothing to do with the simple truth I share. Why are you so fixiated on a messenger instead of addresing the message?
My only concern is that I feel bad if people are deceived. You’re right about self-employed people paying for their own training, except that most business training in other businesses is very, very specific. In my LOS, it is not. It is very ineffective. The growth is not only stagnant, it has been going downhill for quite a few years. Most people that get into this LOS end up quitting. It is too bad. I would love to talk to my upline about it, but they refuse.
I’m not trying to offend or force my opinions on others to try to get them to change their mind. I’m just stating what has happened to me over the years. If I didn’t like the business, I wouldn’t stay in it. I just wish that I would have come to my present mindset many years ago and not wasted so much time on the system.
Best wishes to everyone that has a great motivational and training support system. I hope you are all able to achieve any goal you set in this business.
Also, concerning john, as Ibofightback said. His comments are nonsensical as he seems to be able to read people’s minds.
Amazing.
Jeffrey,
Thanks again for your comments.Just a few last points and I’m done as I know you also want what’s best for this business.
1 Auto mechanics do pay for their training if they own their own business.
2 There are many ways to cut down on transportation costs such as sharing rooms, etc.
3 I think that many people go to a function to attend, but not to learn. How many people do you know take notes, record, then go over their notes and recordings in the weeks after the function with the intent to apply what they learned?
Anyway, as I said, I’m done. I’ll let you have the last say if you want.
IBOFB,
About the link you provided, that’s where I was looking too. It doesn’t list any of the owners. It lists three managers, none of whom are Diamonds or owners of WWG.
john,
Are you or have you ever been an IBO?
World Wide Group details are here Bridgett, but it doesn’t matter since John’s statement is nonsensical.
LLC’s consist of members and their Operating Agreement determines who has what “power”. That could be every member has equal rights or it could be Puryear has them all. Unless John has a copy of the Operating Agreement he doesn’t have a clue.
He’s now of course also claiming to be able to read Puryear’s mind as to his attitude towards Bill Britt’s speeches.
And john,
Again, you are making accusations without backing it up.
“…parted company in 2003 because of Britts marital issues”
How do you know this:
a)that they parted ways b/c og this?
b) that there were martital issues? ‘Cause of a grainy innocuous photograph?
“Look up Worldwide Group on the WA State business website & you will see.”
What website? Please provide a link, as I’m looking at the Secretary of State website for Washington and don’t seem to find anything remotely backing up your claim.
I am certainly open to the truth, and I’ve been asking you to provide the truth, rather than opinions, speculation and gossip.
john,
I have been asking, for months now, is if you are or ever were an IBO.
You keep saying you were at this meeting or that event, but you never answer the question.
Why not?
BWW and WWDB parted company in 2003 because of Britts marital issues and the revelation that his pictures with another woman (not his wife) appeared on the internet along with the copies of court documents that showed police reports when this other woman called the police on him. Of course, the “official” explanation from Ron Puryear over Kate was the Britt had now officially retired. Fact is Britt never retired & is obviously active today. I was at the 2003 FED in Portland (the last one they had together) where Britt danced across the stage quoting Bible verses & how God wants everyone to be rich (of course Puryear condoned this and agreed with it). Now thie IBOAI site tells us how “best practices” are to not invoke religion in our speeches.
Bridgett, I am simply sharing my experience and knowledge. You don’t have to read or agree with it.
WWDBKevin. WWDB is a LLC which means that Puryear (all by himself) has more power than all of his other diamonds combined. Thus he has complete control. So the part ownership statement is misleading at best. Look up Worldwide Group on the WA State business website & you will see.
I went to my upline’s major functions for years. At every (yes, every) function, around 75% were first time attendees. Also, the main focus was NOT business-building training. The message that was absolutely hammered constantly was moving tickets to the next functions, including the next major that was 90 days away. I cannot tell you how many years I wasted going to those functions.
$125 is for the ticket only. The functions quickly add up to $600 or more for a couple when you factor in lodging, meals, gas, etc. Compared to a conventional business, it is a steal. Auto mechanics get specific training on how to fix cars. They don’t get training on anything but that. Also, they don’t pay for the training. Their employer does. Part of being a Diamond is providing training. The cost to the IBO should be minimal. That is one of the reasons that (real) Diamonds make a bazillion dollars a year. If you want to go to your upline’s functions, that’s fine. But five years later when you’re still at 1500 PV because they’ve taught you everything but how to build the business, don’t complain.
I’ll get off of it. It’s not going to ever change.
Well, Jeffrey IS talking about the LOA he is in, and for those of us who have followed his posts over the past couple of years know he doesn’t lump all LOAs together, and is hard at work on the retail side of his business and was before it became the new emphasis of the Transformation process.
wwdbkevin – I agree that saying “save 30% of the retail price” is accurate and fine, the problem is when it’s made to seem that they’ll save money on what they’re doing now by joining. Promoting the tax advantages on the other hand … well … if I recall correctly that’s borderline against the rules.
Jeffrey,
Gotta say I agree with visioneer on this. $125 is very cheap for a 2 or 3 day function. Last year I did a price comparison between a Network 21 function and a generic Network Marketing function here in Scandinavia. The N21 function won hands down, less than a third the price, plus a satisfaction guarantee.
Jeffrey,
I do appreciate your perspective, but I have to say that your constant “slamming” of an organizations major functions gives the perspective that all or most functions are ripoffs.
I don’t know your LOA, but with my LOA, I know that our major functions are an incredible value. I don’t know if you’ve ever tried booking an event with thousands of people attending and all of the myriad of details involved in that. So, unless you have, please don’t group all of the organizations together.
John,
You do save 30% from paying retail and the tax benefits are ridiculous. But you have to make more than $30k a year at your job for them to be ridiculous. I realize over $1000/mo in tax benefits from my job income from my Quixtar/Amway Global business. I also build it and realize a nice profit.
As far as Ron Puryear is concerned, he is a Founders Crown and has made millions for decades from this business and built the only system in the Quixtar/Amway world where if you go Diamond you can be a owner in it. Believe it or not WWDB was the first to get Free shipping and we were the first to have our own websites. Quixtar followed soon after seeing how it effected WWDB first.
This is just another reason why I no longer attend my upline Diamond’s meetings. It is the same old half-truths and sweeping the A word under the rug until the very last second that has been going on for years. That is why, even though his organization is now accredited (now the tickets to the major functions are “only” $125.00–what a deal) I am beginning the accreditation process myself. I have had presentation and training materials approved before, so all I have to do is update some numbers and terminology and re-submit it. I only wish these “leaders” would just tell the truth.
John must clearly be a CURRENT IBO. I have no idea what Puryear/WWDB has actually taught, but common sense dictates that if John knows that Puryear has “never corrected” something, then he is clearly attending all of Puryear’s talks up until the present day, and purchasing WWDB tools with this info.
So I’m curious John, you seem very critical of the business and WWDB, yet from what you say you must still be an IBO and still attending WWDB events and purchasing WWDB tools.
I’d love an explanation, as I’m sure would others.
john,
What are you talking about?
Really.
You come on these threads, make many accusations in one post, often they are half-truths, with nothing to back up what you are saying, and STILL not answering the question of whether or not you are or ever were an IBO.
What is up with that?
WWDB has consistently taught that you not only save 30% but with tax deductions you even save more. This was taught by Ron Puryear and of course all of his downline diamonds repeated his mantra. Furthermore, Ron Puryear has taught (and never corrected) that there are no overhead expenses. Of course he also denied making profits from tools.
I hadn’t thought of it this way, and I thank you for this thread (blog). I donot hear it too often w/ in our groups, etc (amway as saving 30% on what you buy already,) but it really rings true to home. And I will now be cautious of misleading others. Thankyou. I do, however, often hear more material statistics like: “buying from yourself, you can save up to $2000/year on household commodities” and such like that. Or, “Awmay has products you buy already, and by changing your ‘point of purchase,’ you can save money montly.”
How? Cross-lining isn’t against the rules. If you want to do it you’re still perfectly free to do it, and many groups do. I however see the logic in not doing it, and I explain this to others, and they see the logic to.
The idea that’s how everyone operates is a little ludicrous. We’re encouraged to read and source outside materials. Diamonds talk about attending seminars by folk like Tony Robbins etc. Nobody tells us not to do that. And we’re absolutely encouraged to use Amway. Ideas are also shared in environments where the risk is minimised, such as at seminars with crossline groups or crossline speakers, but where a common upline has evaluated the risk.
As a result, they become more independent, more resourceful, and more responsible for the success or failure of their own business.
They’re free to do that now. I can crossline all I want, I can’t be “fired”, I’m not an employee. (note that Amway has another rule, crossgroup selling, for which I can be “fired” for!
An independent business owner makes their own decisions. They can listen to the guy with limited experience and success in Amway who says “I believe the benefits of crosslining outweigh the negative!” or they can listen to folk with millions of IBOs and decades of experience who say “In our experience crosslining can be hazardous to your business”. Throw in the logic behind it and it makes sense to go with the later.
IBOFB – Thank you for your detailed answer to my question. Your description of no-crosslining as risk management between the upline and the IBO is analogous to the relationship between a manager and a direct report in a corporation. In my opinion, this goes against the idea that an IBO is an independent contractor free to build the business however he or she wishes to (within the rules, of course).
I would characterize the AMOs’ Systems to be a set of Best Practices. Of course, as I’m a frequent critic of these Systems, I wouldn’t call much of what they preach to be best practices! Still, the idea that an IBO in one System should listen to what’s taught there to the exclusion of outside ideas is a little ludicrous.
I feel that over the years, the Systems have perverted the role of the upline and IBO to one akin to manager and direct report. It’s because of this perversion that there are numerous horror stories of the “upline from hell.” By performing “risk management” with no-crosslining, I would argue that the kingpins have actually increased their risk. I can go on and on about the kingpins and their poor decisions, but I’ll stop here.
Your site, along with Chuck’s Speaking of Amway site, are examples of how crosslining is not to be feared. An IBO reading Amway’s own set of blogs may find information contrary to what’s being taught on stage. Who is the IBO to listen? With the manager/report relationship that’s been ingrained in the Systems for years, the IBO has been taught to listen upline. By breaking away from this relationship, the IBO is free to get information from a variety of sources: your site, Amway, other IBOs, etc. As a result, they become more independent, more resourceful, and more responsible for the success or failure of their own business.
It’s for these reasons why I feel crosslining is not the negative that it is often characterized within the Amway business.
Very often — past and present — speakers are eager, even desperate, to be seen to be successful in their presentation, which means motivating prospects to join the business, and thus they give into temptation to stretch the truth.
If we can get both the Systems and the Corp to agree to ways of presenting concepts that have no grey areas and don’t drive anywhere near the edge in terms of bringing us into disrepute, reputation issues like this could be solved voluntarily and positively, instead of waiting for the Corp to dictate best practice.
Your post is an excellent step in that direction. Those of us reading this who have access to influential uplines should email them and request they read this thread and add it to the discussions they have with their peers.
Well to get back on topic. I agree with regards to “saving” money.
One thing to add. At my first open, I paid very close attention to the words of the speaker (I had seen these fast talkers before…lol). When he got to this part of the open, he clearly pointed out that an IBO “saves 30% off the retail cost of products.” Clearly, at least to me, demonstrating it was not a savings over what I was spending, but rather the cost of the Quixtar products.
That being said, I can also see how that would be interpreted as saving 30% over what people already spend. Especially with little or no explanation as the type and quality of the products.
Okay, you are right.
A new b) :
b) a tad bit out of touch
yup! hence my post, though I think completely out of touch with reality is a little harsh :). What happens is I think folk just hear things, perhaps from old tapes, or from markets with different conditions, or from someone else who heard those things, and then repeat it without really thinking about it at all. The “save 30%” thing is unfortunately quite a common refrain around the Amway world.
I’ll keep a running tally to see if anything changes 🙂
“is that even in the most centrally controlled organisation, whoever that is, it’s difficult to control what everyone is saying at every meeting and to get everyone to suddenly stop saying ‘save 30%!!!'”
But wouldn’t it make sense, if everyone is on the same page, that a centrally controlled organisation, should get their act together and suddenly stop saying something so stupid?
Here’s the deal, in case any centrally controlled organisation is listening:
If a speaker from stage, who is supposed to be listened to, supposed to have credibility, says that a person will save 30% on things they are already buying and the new IBO/ABO discovers that this isn’t true, then the speaker is looked upon as either:
a) a liar, intentionally misleading people
or
b) completely out of touch with reality
or
c) terrible with numbers, commerce, and the fundamentals of business
or
d) all or some of the above
a, b,c, or d, are all bad for business! 😉
That’s the type of thing I’m talking about, some WWDBer could have bought a brand new IBO or prospect along to that seminar and got completely the wrong impression about how WWDB operated.
In contrast I can remember a speaker we had from another organisation, and he started to say something vaguely political, and then stopped himself and said something like “Ooops, better stop now or I’ll get in trouble with Jim”. We’re (mostly) a benevolent dictatorship 🙂
Yet, even in that situation, can be tough to get the message out to the literally thousands of folk around the world showing open plans, let alone the IBOs doing home meetings and one on ones.
BWW “allowed” people to attend WWDB’s FEDs until 2003.
And yes, there was a clash of culture. They were yelling stuff that the WWDB people had no clue what they were saying. That’s how you could tell which “camp” people were from. 🙂
And I remember them running, literally, to grab as many seats as possible, and placing stuff all over the seats to save them for their groups. The energy was a bit manic. HAHAHA.
And, talk about the dangers of “crosslining”…there would be speakers using the same words, but they meant different things.
As an example, though not at all real, but as an illustration, it’s as if someone is talking to you about “Diamond” and goes on to talk about the four Platinum legs you need to go Diamond.
Huh?
Or I’d be talking to some of them, and they would know all the Diamonds from WWDB, and I’d have no clue about their Diamonds. And I finally asked how they know all this, and I learned that they got WWDB tapes/CDs as well as their own.
Huh?
Having the “Brits” was entertaining, but I do think there is more unification without them. No offense guys! 😉
The point being that in that situation WWDB would have no “editorial control” over BWW speakers, whereas in a more monolithic organisation that control exists (I’ve got a better cult than you! nya! nya! nya! 🙂 )
The original point being, and this has really completely fallen out the window, is that even in the most centrally controlled organisation, whoever that is, it’s difficult to control what everyone is saying at every meeting and to get everyone to suddenly stop saying “save 30%!!!”
But you hold, or held, seminars with BWW didn’t you? Was that a WWDB event that BWW was invited to, or vice versa? I even recall you telling me about some “clashes” of culture/opinion at these events
“Am I correct in saying though that LOS seminars are still handled by individual diamonds though?”
Nope. WWDB has been centralized, as an organization, since its inception in 1977.
I do realize that as an American, I am Ameri-centric. You mean, there’s a world outside mine? My blog is named what it is for a reason. HAHAHA. 😉
I’d also note those examples were from more than a decade ago, which I should have made clear.
That was an example of apparently significant differences in approach among diamonds within WWDB, I didn’t mean it to go so far as implying a “speakers bureau” approach, my apologies. Actually the group I specifically had in mind isn’t even in the US. My reading of WWDB is that the “culture” is becoming stronger over the years, thus with more uniformity of approach as time goes on. Accreditation has likely significantly enhanced that. Am I correct in saying though that LOS seminars are still handled by individual diamonds though? Can’t remember if that was WWDB or someone else…
So what did you mean by this statement?
“if you look around the net at say the WWDB’ers you often read “my diamond taught this” and another say “my diamond taught something else” etc etc. That rarely happens in N21,”
Oh, I didn’t have WWDB in mind at all with the speakers bureau comment. I did say “some”! 🙂 Remember, when you consider globally there’s quite a lot of groups!
IBOFB,
If you are saying that N21 has a most global reach, I can see that.
But as far as saying that WWDB is a mish-mash and just a speaker’s bureau, I respectfully disagree.
And NOW you are taking jc and pp’s word on things? 😉
If I send someone to a WWDB-sanctioned meeting in another state, I’m 100% confident they are getting the same information, same plan, same numbers, same game plan (CORE), but a different personality, than what I’m getting in my state.
Now with the Internet, the unification is even more obvious–WWDB has a main website, as well as a training website, a retail website, a business opportunity website. All IBOs affiliated with WWDB get the same info.
Now, perhaps WWDB isn’t as militant as some groups, and allows people to “major in the majors and minor in the minors”, and actually treats their IBOs as that–Independent–but to say it’s nothing more than a “speakers
bureau” is, well, inaccurate, to say the least.
My comment is very off-topic, but I felt the need, since you unneccessarily singled out your LOA, to share my viewpoint. 🙂
Amthrax – the main purpose of no-crosslining is as risk management mechanism, nothing to do with any nefarious “information control” per se. Team is a classic example of it happening and causing damage, even at a high level. Essentially a bunch of crossline IBOs there all decided to join up and they thought they had a better way of running Amway, but Amway wouldn’t play ball. So they all quit. Florence/Harteis/etc would still be in Amway if they hadn’t “cross-lined” with Woodward. The “rule of thumb” is that if a common upline oks it, and preferrably is also “involved” then it should be ok. The common upline has a vested interested in keeping you both happy and both in Amway, and can hopefully put out any fires that might break out. You might interpret this as the upline trying to “control” you and not learn something that might cause you to leave Amway. Well, yeah, but the same thing applies even with the smallest group, and it is with good intentions. What if I have say two 9% legs, and one of them decides to check out SuperNewMLM. He may decides it’s better, thats fine, it’s his decision. But I don’t want him to talking to my other 9%er and telling him all this. It’s an unfortunate side of human nature that we tend to think “the grass is greener on the other side”. Past experience shows that 99% of the time, these folk convinced by a crossline to do something different, whether in building an Amway business or jumping ship, 99% of the time it ends up badly for them. One of my upline, a FCA, says every single time he’s had significant legs disappear, it’s ultimately been a result of crosslining. It doesn’t just damage his business, but also everyone upline and downline of the “crossliners” – again, think of all the folk upline and downline of Team who elected to stay with Amway.
Does this mean perhaps folk might miss out on some brilliant new way to build Amway? Possibly, but the balance is the decreased risk of an implosion. Great new techniques usually go upline and then down crosslines eventually anyway.
On a more one to one basis it’s again still risk management. You can have 2 IBOs who, to an inexperienced eye, seem to have much the same businesses, say 9% and they’ve both got 5 frontline and 5 customers. One of them sits down with you for advice, and after looking at their overall situation and their goals you say “I recommend you get out and sponsor 5 more and go for 12% next month”. The next one comes in and you evaluate their situation and goals say “I recommend you get out and get 5 more customers, don’t worry this month about trying to go 12%”. They meet up and start to chat. “Why’d he want me to go 12% and not you? Is he favouring you? Maybe I should sponsor more, not get more customers? Stupid clueless upline … I’m gonna go do ACN instead ….”
When in reality perhaps the advice was different because the upline knew the second person needed more immediate cash, or some other different circumstance.
Or what if I come out of a seminar fired up, run into some crossline guy and say without thinking “man, best seminar ever, my group is so fired up!” The crossline guy has had a miserable seminar, most of the folk who promised to come cancelled, his girlfriend left him, and he’s depressed as hell. What’s he gonna think “wow! great for you! I’m gonna do that next time!” well, maybe, or he might think “yeah, well you’ve got a girlfriend, mine just left me. I’m doing it alone now, nobody listens to me, and I’m lousy at this, it’s just not worth it, I quit”.
Without that conversation he may instead have spoken to his upline, who encouraged him appropriately and helped him work through his problems, and next seminar there was he on stage at a new level.
Perfectly innocent “positive” statements can damage other people’s businesses. I’d prefer not to have them risking damaging my business, so I’m going to provide the same courtesy to them – no crosslining.
So, in summary, the experience of many people over many years is that crosslining is a high-risk activity that can damage businesses, so best just to avoid it.
This site and others by the way absolutely ARE crosslining, and that’s not a good thing. I do not promote these sites to IBOs, they are there to be found by folk who are already looking and thus already “mentally crosslining” with IBOs and former IBOs. Heck, someone could read my comments above about N21, decide their group sucked, and quit. There might have been nothing wrong with their group, they’d just had a crappy day. I’ve damaged someones business. Not what I want to do to otherwise, and not what I want done to me!
A bit long-winded but I hope I got the idea across ….
Bridgett, I probably should have put “global” in there, because things have been changing in the US market recently, at least partially due to accreditation.
What I mean is that all materials for sale are produced by Network 21, not by individual Diamonds or above. N21 offices and staff are responsible for the running and financials of all open plans and other seminars. A standardised plan is shown at all opens, so any plan with any N21 affiliated group in the same country will give you exactly the same presentation. If some change happens, then it changes everywhere. AS we saw with the pokerpooner/joecool etc episodes, if you look around the net at say the WWDB’ers you often read “my diamond taught this” and another say “my diamond taught something else” etc etc. That rarely happens in N21, especially internationally where most have “grown up” in the N21 culture. I can put a downline in pretty much any N21 meeting anywhere in the planet and the teaching and “environment” will be virtually identical, only the language changes! When you look at the Yager/Britt LOS in particular it’s a different story, with all the tool battles and lawsuits in the 80s and 90s, and even more recently with Skaggs, different Diamonds all “in charge” of their own “tool companies” but getting together a few times a year, like I think you guys and BWW used to do until fairly recently?
I never quite understood the whole no crosslining dictum. My LOS occasionally featured Diamonds from other organizations on the Standing Order Tape (SOT). In addition, they often had speakers from other Amway Motivational Organizations come to talk to the group. At Diamond Club or all of the other Amway-sponsored organizations, they talk shop with their fellow, crossline compatriots.
The question I always asked myself was when did it become appropriate or accepted to crossline? Once you’ve reached a certain level… once you’ve been accepted into the club? In the end, I concluded that the whole crosslining and no negative dictums were just means to control the type of and flow of information to an IBO.
Does the corporation itself take any position on crosslining or is it solely an invention of the AMOs?
What does this mean?
“N21 is about the only significant system with any kind of real centralized organisation and teaching,”
Speaking directly to a crossline presenter about something like this is problematic and not really appropriate. I have no upline here, but this post will make its way to the right eyes and ears, yes.
It’s a teaching that may have been true once upon a time, and thanks to our wonderful “duplication” it just keeps on keeping on. It also of course *is* true if you’re in the right socioeconomic bracket with the right shopping habits. It’s attractive “half-truths” like this that can be difficult to stop, but I figure a public plea might help 🙂
Getting things changed is difficult. I had an interesting chat last weekend with, well, someone who has been around a while and knows how things work, and they pointed out that N21 is about the only significant system with any kind of real centralized organisation and teaching, and even there you find different LOS teachings in different places. With other groups individual diamonds tend to be far more independent and it’s pretty much impossible for someone to suggest they’re showing the plan wrong. Some “groups” could be considered as little more than “speakers bureaus”
This 30% savings was taught when I was in the business 10 years ago, and its roots go way back to the 70s and 80s. Many of the leaders then are the same leaders today. If they were teaching it then, you can bet they’re still teaching it today.
To both IBOFB and ajgannon, after your meeting, have you ever spoken to the presenter and/or your upline and shared your concerns about the 30% savings statement? If so, what did he say?
The way that I see it, the only way you can change this is if you build your own organization to a substantial level and teach the business how you want it taught. Otherwise, the Diamond leaders aren’t going to listen to some 300PV or 1000PV person since they “know better” than you.
IBOFightBack wrote, “Well, as is unfortunately not uncommon, when explaining the various benefits of becoming an Amway Business Owner (ABO), one he promoted was the idea that “you’ll save 30% on stuff you’re already buying”.”
My up-line does this as well during open meetings. It drives me crazy and makes my skin crawl like fingernails clawing a chalk board.