Amway critics and credibility – another one bites the dust

When you read stuff on the internet, it’s difficult to know what’s true and what’s not – generally all one can do is assess an authors credibility by what they say and how accurate it is. Everyone makes mistakes occasionally, but if people are making major errors of fact in their posts … well, it damages their credibility. If those errors are about what their entire post and/or blog is about, it damages the credibility of everything they post. Amway critics regularly try to damage the credibility of this site by attacking me (with often wildly inaccurate claims) rather than what I say and the information I present. It doesn’t matter, this site isn’t about me, I don’t care what you think about me – judge the credibility of what I write. Is it generally accurate? Do I backed it up by sources when I can? Judge what I write, not me. When someone resorts to ad hominem what it really does is reveal how little logical and factual basis the attacker has to try to discredit the other person – if you can’t attack the argument, attack the person.

So what’s the credibility of the Amway critics like? For just two examples, it was discovered several years ago that prolific Amway critic Scott Larsen didn’t know the basics of the 4% leadership bonus and a number of his supposed Amway business “analysis” were based on a complete fallacy. More recently an Indian blogger, Shyam Sundar with the impressively named “Corporate Fraud Watch” blog referred to the 6% bonus level as “ruby” and has made various other claims about Amway that show he has no actual idea how the business works. Now, these guys aren’t necessarily being dishonest here (unlike JoeCool) – they’re just ignorant. They simply don’t know what they’re talking about. What’s sad is that many “beliefs” about the Amway business are based not on reality, but on these “false facts” and ignorance – perhaps sadder though is that many people investigating the Amway business read these sites and believe them.

Today I encountered yet another example of the kind of prolific ignorance I’m talking about. I’ve noticed over the last few years that (the TEAM debacle aside) there’s been a real drop in the number of Amway critics on the internet, in particular those who have had any actual experience with the business. Surprisingly, most Amway critics on the ‘net have had no personal experience at all with Amway and those that have been Amway distributors had their experiences as much as a decade or more ago. Yet many of these same critics all keep claiming nothing has changed with Amway – that even the legitimate criticisms they had (and there are quite a few) still apply in 2009. If so, where are all the new Amway critics?

To their credit, they do seem to realise that the lack of new Amway critics, and the lack of activity on anti-Amway internet forums, must mean something. But what? I think it means that many of the aspects of Amway (primarily how some people approached the business, and prospects) have been significantly improved over the last decade. Amway has for example implented things like accreditation for Amway Global (North America), ensuring those offering training and motivational products and services to Amway business owners have clear guidelines about what they can and cannot say and do. Amway has also terminated numerous Diamonds and above over the past decade or so. Indeed it’s interesting to note that former Emerald Eric Scheibler’s upline Diamond Fred Harteis is no longer with Amway. Neither are various Diamonds and above in the upline of former Emerald Jeff Probant. Indeed, I believe even Scott Larsen’s upline (for his very small time in the business) is out.

Things have changed.

Amway critics though have come up with another reason for the lack of new Amway critics – the business in North America must be dying, nobody new is joining, so there’s no new critics. This is a semi-plausible explanation – except it doesn’t seem backed up by any facts. Amway Global sales were probably down slightly last year, but may even have gone up – and this is in the context of some 30,000 active IBOs leaving in the TEAM debacle. This would seem to be evidence that other groups within Amway must be growing quite significantly, not shrinking. Furthermore, and this is anecdotal so needs to be treated with appropriate caution, I’ve had reports from multiple different sources that sponsoring rates in North America are up significantly this year. Traffic on my sites, AmwayWiki, AmwayWatch, AmwayTalk and The Truth About Amway has increased by more than 200% in the past year. Amway Global Achieve magazine continues to recognize page after page of new Silver Producers and above. Amway critics have no idea whether Amway Global is growing or not, they’re just idle gossipers. I’m reminded of a post I did last year, where I highlighted an Amway critic claiming a certain Emerald’s business was falling apart, he was no longer qualifying, and he was probably going to have to get a job. The only problem was … this “Emerald”, whose business was supposedly falling apart, had just qualified Diamond!

And that’s what this post is about – credibility – and for that I give you this quote from Amway critic Rocket, today explaining why the numbers of platinums being recognized by Amway Global has no bearing on whether Amway Global is growing or shrinking –

You could have a guy in Canada who immigrated from India, and sponsors his friends back in India, but nobody else in Canada, yet still attains a platinum pin.

No Rocket, you can’t. Platinum volume comes entirely in market – ie, if you are recognized as a new Platinum in North America, it doesn’t matter if you’ve got a Crown Ambassador in a leg in China – his volume does not count towards your Platinum volume. This isn’t some secret knowledge – knowing what’s required to qualify Platinum is one of the most basic pieces of information even a beginning Amway business owner would want to know. Yet rocket, who has been commenting on Amway for years, including running his own anti-Amway blog for more than 4 years … well, he doesn’t even know this basic piece of information.

And it’s not just RocketJoeCool commented on Rocket’s post and didn’t seem to notice this major blunder at the heart of it. Scott Larsen added his thoughts as well – no mention from him of the blunder either, nor from another critic  “mrmaximum”. None of these Amway critics seem to know even this basic tenet of the Amway business – do people really believe what these guys write?

Clueless.

145 thoughts on “Amway critics and credibility – another one bites the dust”

  1. Where is there a link saying that Stewart and Hart were “kicked out” The only one we “know” got kicked out is TEAM. Even that depends on who you believe. Woodward says they quit. I don’t really believe either of them.

    Is there court cases that describe people getting “kicked out”?

    Amway doesn’t divulge the details of discipline with a member.

  2. I gave it in the earlier link. Online sales were up, as reported by Internet Retailer, with a note the figures were confirmed by Amway.

    I still suspect overall figures were down, but that the overall drop was *less* than that lost by kicking out Team – thus the rest of Amway must have increased in size, even if it dipped below a billion, which I suspect.

    With regards revenues over time a very similar thing to the TEAM dispute happened only a few years ago with TIF. You also have Stewart and Hart being kicked out, amongst others. For revenue to have stayed “flat” this means that overall the remainder of Amway must have been growing. Loss of revenue through kicking people out is not a reflection of market demand.

  3. If Amway’s US sales were up last year, I doubt they would have hidden those figures from ibos, after the very public and nasty fight with TEAM.

    The fact is that US sales have been teetering at or near the $1 billion mark for a long, long time.

    After the TEAM fiasco, Amway stopped disclosing US sales. Hmmm… wonder why.

    If sales were up, I imagine they would have made a big deal about it during their 50th anniversary. It would have been a great trophy after the public acrimonious divorce and the GO TEAM GO attitude from one year earlier.

    Instead, Doug DeVos and Steve Van Andel stated very specifically that while several markets were up, some substantially, that US sales continue to be “challenging.”

    What evidence do you have that they don’t?

  4. JoeCool, with regards your first comments, I complete agree. With regards conference attendance, I seriously doubt you know. Are you tracking all LOAs/LOSs? Have any groups split or moved organisation? Have groups split venues?

    It reminds of that guy saying he’d “heard” Mike Wachter had fallen out of Emerald qualification and gotten a job … yet the previous month he’d been recognized as a new Diamond!

    The point is, we don’t know. What we do know is revenues dropped less than you’d expect given the TEAM departure, and that Amway has spent an unprecedented amount on advertising, sponsorships, and new bonuses. I’d be extremely surprised if they weren’t having a positive effect.

  5. MichMan, my “theory” is based on what evidence we have – revenues down slightly but not much, >30,000 IBOs departing, reports from people with contacts that sponsoring is up. The “dying” theory has so far not been supported by any evidence other than “they didn’t report total revenues” and the somewhat circular reasoning that there’s less critics so therefore there must be fewer sponsored.

  6. I believe Amway is growing in other countries much faster than the US because of the bad name reputation that Amway has in the US. If foreign IBOs resort to the same rtickery and deception that some US IBOs employed in the past, these countries will eventuall suffer the same fate once the business reaches the saturation point in that country.

    And secpfically, what I am refering to with the US is IBOs lying to people to get them to see the plan, or outrageous claims such as perfect water, or denying that Quixtar had anything to do with Amway. It is IBOs themselves who have damaged the Amway name. Upline’s past lies about the tools profits didn’t help the cause either.

    IBOFB, while sponsoring could be up, I noticed that in Hawaii, the venues for meetings have gotten smaller. I checked the Hawaii convention center schedule and they are using small rooms for open meetings. I have also heard that major functions have smaller venues. Of course sponsoring could still be up, but it seems that there are fewer business building IBOs.

  7. ibofb, here is my point.

    Critics interpret one scenario or event through their wishes, beliefs and desires and come up with one conclusion, in this case that there are fewer online critics because the US market is off.

    You interpret the same event through your wishes, beliefs and desires and come up with an opposite conclusion, mainly that the US market is cleaning things up.

    I would suspect that both are true.

    There is no doubt that the US market is off.

    But maybe (hopefully) they are also cleaning things up.

  8. Ironman said: “I think it’s kind of hard to press the tool issue world wide, when the average income in South Africa and India is not even 2% that of North American income.”

    … and look how fast India is growing without the kind of over the top tool promotion that has gone on in the US!

    Maybe it’s time for the US market to learn from the faster growing markets around the world.

  9. Joecool, I have only one question as I read all the posts. I am a traditional internet biz owner as well as a platinum IBO. I read your comments about the north american biz is not growing as fast as it used to. However, Amway is growing like gangbusters in all other countries and many people in those countries are succeeding. From a business perspective that tells me one of two things. Amway is only viable for other countries, or maybe Americans need to stop listening to people like you, look at the facts, and realize that if third world countries are doing well then maybe it does work. Another thing…I think it’s kind of hard to press the tool issue world wide, when the average income in South Africa and India is not even 2% that of North American income.

  10. There is now a solution to anyone who is in the business and is tired of their LOA’s abusive tool/function system. (Please note: I’m not referring to ALL of them.) It is not publicized, so you have to call the company and ask about it. It is a department that works with “independents” or “orphans” in the business. The company has an exclusive website for us indies and provides training via webinars and they also occasionally put on functions.

    After attending National Spotlight in Chicago, I went to Ada and spoke in person with the person running the department. Of course, you don’t have to meet with them, but I did since I was going to Ada anyway. It sounded pretty neat so I signed on. We’ve already had several webinars and I am impressed with them. A lot of good information. Best of all, the training is free. I haven’t been with the program long enough to attend a function, but I’m looking forward to it. Another nice thing about it is the training is “pure” since it’s coming right from the company.

    For anyone disillusioned with your LOS/LOA, feel free to check it out. If anyone wants to know the specifics, contact me through my personal retail website http://www.jsmith3.qhealthzone.com.

  11. I believe I have a reasonable hypothesis as to why there are fewer critics. And as I said, itis just a theory.

    The internet has made information gathering very easy. The tools scam and other LOS/Amway issues are well known. Dateline also exposed information about the business. Anyone searching for Amway information can find it.

    Therefore, I believe less people are joining Amway. I believe that is why Amway doesn’t release North American sales. I believe North American sales are down, else Amway would boast about the rise.

    So I believe there are fewer people joining, and out of the ones who do, they are often already informed of the perils of the business such as the bad name reputation and the tools scam. Therefore when these fully informed IBOs eventually quit, they do not have much to complain about as they thought they would succeed in the face of overhwelming odds. But if they do quit, they probably have nothing to complain about since they probably knew what they were getting into.

    That’s my theory.

    1. Joecool, it’s a theory, yes, but it doesn’t seem to match the evidence. Amway North America *did* release internet-only sales to Internet Retailer and they had *increased* over previous years, so it’s unlikely overall sales dropped too much, if at all. I agree they probably dropped though, otherwise I think they would have released them. The fact that this occured despite the exodus of over 30,000 IBOs in the team debacle indicates that other groups must be growing substantially.

      Furthermore, multiple sources have told me sponsoring in North America is up. They could be wrong of course too, but all of those sources have much better access to info than you.

  12. ibofb: “The fact that their are so few “new critics” and many more positive stories around on the ‘net tell me things are moving forward.”

    Post Hoc Fallacy

    “The post hoc ergo propter hoc (after this therefore because of this) fallacy is based upon the mistaken notion that simply because one thing happens after another, the first event was a cause of the second event. Post hoc reasoning is the basis for many superstitions and erroneous beliefs…

    “Sequences don’t establish a probability of causality any more than correlations do. Coincidences happen. Occurring after an event is not sufficient to establish that the prior event caused the later one.”

    http://www.skepdic.com/posthoc.html

  13. Acknowledge. Thanks for keeping it real.

    I don’t hear of function attendance in Canada growing, on the contrary, it’s shrinking by all reports, especially when compared to the mid 90’s.

    Bankrupt? I don’t know if anyone is or is not. But I have a sneaking suspicion that the business isn’t a lucrative as it once was. Hence the Duncan situation. In spite of the fact that his problems contradict many things he likely said from a stage. I say likely because I can’t specifically recall things he said, but they all had a very similar theme.

    Accreditation doesn’t solve the problems Amway is facing.

    It only gives the appearance of caring about the problems.

    1. (1) you say re function attendance “by all reports”. Whose reports? Were any of the functions you’re talking about connected to Team? There are lots of different Amway groups and I sincerely doubt you’re getting reports from all of them. Some of the functions I go to have gotten smaller at times – because they were getting too big and split them in to two (or more!) different events at different locations! A casual observer might go to one and then get reports from someone else several years later, not knowing this has occurred and thinking they’d shrunk or been static.

      (2) Amway in North America has significantly increased many bonuses over the last couple of years. Anyone who is qualifying has had their income increase, not decrease. Whether people continue to qualify for things is an altogether different question. As for Greg Duncan, the bankruptcy documents indicate his Amway income alone in 2007 was around half a million dollars a year, not bad money in anyone’s book.

      (3) Accreditation is solving many of Amway’s problems. For one example in the past there were numerous lawsuits involving IBOs fighting with other IBOs over distribution of income from BSM (“tools”). In some groups there was no contractual agreement about how that should happen, and different people would earn different amounts based more on relationships than any particular business metric. Now they are contractual and fair. One effect of this is that for any given amount of BSM revenue it will be shared among more people – ie BSM profit becomes less and there’ll be less instances of people excessively profting. In addition the BSM payment schedules are no longer “pin based”. In some groups the BSM rebate you received was based on the maximum Amway level you ever achieved. This means making say Diamond by whatever means would instantly increase your tool income significantly. If you no longer qualified Diamond then your Amway income would drop significantly, but you’d still be earning tool income as if you were a Diamond, making it an increasingly important part of your income. Now it’s volume based. Odds are that if your Amway business shrinks, so will your tool income. This means fewer problems with people having excessive BSM income relative to their tool income.

      There’s also of course the issues regarding “the right to differ” and similar policies. As I’ve mentioned some groups are still struggling to adhere to this, and I can accept it may take time for cultures to change. The fact that their are so few “new critics” and many more positive stories around on the ‘net tell me things are moving forward.

    1. rocket, the only people I censor are those who repeat the same, usually discredited stuff ad nauseum or are just plain obscene. Not many of either occur. Your posts go straight in the spam folder for the first reason, I check it every so often and if you say something reasonable I approve it.

  14. Hello, I am in WWDB and can tell you what exactly has changed. Local functions(rallies, seminars and second looks)went up 3 dollars. The major function in the summer went up 10 dollars. Everything else is exactly the same. Accreditation has not changed the system, and it’s a large one so I’m sure it went under the microscope.

    Oh! There is one other thing…

    Function attendance has been growing like crazy and function attendance is way up, year over year and month over month. I doubt anyone’s going bankrupt.

    I could go on and on but the critics here wouldn’t know because they don’t care to know.

  15. Great post.
    I think Amway critics like rocket, Scott Larsen perfectly understands that they are wrong. But the thing is that they will never admit that. It is really hard to do that. Just like JoeCool, that the 5 years of work, where he tries to reveal the truth is just useless…

  16. ***

    Jim Z said: I also hope MichMan stops beating his wife….(only kidding MichMan, just having fun with Bridgett’s comment.

    ***

    My wife will be happy to vouch for me…. as soon as she is released from the hospital…. and the restraining order against me is lifted. I will keep you posted as long as the prison keeps letting me use the library computer.

    1. Qualification criteria are in the Amway Business Reference Guide. The Amway Global one is available here.

      In North America a Diamond needs to have at least 3 in-market legs, but can count other legs that may qualify internationally to make six. Note that in that case you’ll be a Diamond, but you want qualify for the Diamond Bonus, and profit on your international leg will be halved (2% instead of 4%). Similar kind of rules apply for Emerald. This is why you can have folk like Bo Short and, I suspect, Eric Scheibler who may have qualified at a pin level but weren’t making much money. You can be a qualified Emerald only making less than a thousand bucks a month, before expenses.

      Similar with the strategy TEAM was using, it was creating a lot of platinums, but they were making pennies. That may be one reason why the average incomes haven’t been updated for a while, as TEAM’s system may have been dramatically decreasing averages, particularly for Platinum.

  17. Well….it’s been about three years since I looked at any of these sites (back when “Speaking About Amway” was still in use). I feel as though I just logged off yesterday – the same pros and the same cons. I walked away from commenting because once I got a year or so away from the business, I realized I had no way of knowing what changes, if any, would be made – and so I would be commenting on stale information that may still be true – but also may not. Who knows.

    So, hello to all. Very sad to read about Ron Puryear’s son. I had not known about his death – that is a horrible thing for anyone to go through.

    I also hope MichMan stops beating his wife….(only kidding MichMan, just having fun with Bridgett’s comment.

    God Bless and I hope that everyone here is successful in whatever they put their hand to.

  18. employer firms JoeCool. Did you honestly miss that part or are you trolling?

    You’re right, “closure” may not necessarily = failure, however in the world of Amway and MLM critics, including yourself, anyone who not only doesn’t renew (ie close) is to be considered “a failure”, and also anyone who doesn’t meet whatever standard of “success” you define!

    Keep digging ….

  19. From IBOFB’s source:

    What is the survival rate for new firms?
    Seven out of ten new employer firms last at least two years, and about half survive five years. More specifically, according to new Census data, 69% of new employer establishments born to new firms in 2000 survived at least two years, and 51% survived five or more years. Firms born in 1990 had very similar survival rates. With most firms starting small, 99.8% of the new employer establish­ments were started by small firms. Survival rates were simi­lar across states and major industries.

    Source: U.S Dept. of Commerce, Bureau of the Census, Business Dynamics Statistics. Note that the figures could be skewed slightly by the rare occur­rence of new firms opening multiple establishments in their first few years.

    Also, it should be noted that closure of a business doesn’t necessarily = failure.

  20. So…if a pro-person doesn’t tell the truth on a subject, then that’s an excuse for an anti-person to also not tell the truth?

    So if my son pushes my daughter to the ground because she said something that he didn’t like, and when I question him about his actions and he says, “Well she started it!” that I should turn to my daughter and say, “Serves ya right, kid. Suck it up.”

    Insightful.

  21. Hmmm, just found this –

    How many businesses open and close each year?
    An estimated 627,200 new employer firms began opera­tions in 2008, and 595,600 firms closed that year. This amounts to an annual turnover of about 10% for entry and 10% for exit. Nonemployer firms have turnover rates three times as high as those of employer firms, mostly because of easier entry and exit conditions.
    (source

    An annual turnover of 30% indicates that there’d be a 5 year “failure” rate as much as 150%! Later in the same page it reports that about half of employer small businesses close within 5 years.

    In 2006 there were 6 million firms with employees and 21.7 million without employees! 99.9% of the 6 million were small businesses, with a 5 yr closure rate of 50%. The 21.7 million have a turnover 3 times as high …. these statistics indicate that a 95% closure rate for all small businesses (employer and nonemployer) is quite probably accurate or perhaps even an underestimate!

    I told you not to bother starting the “small business failure rate” debate, now I’m glad you did, found some good resources.

  22. Sure, I’ve made my viewpoint on the Perfect Water claims and denying the Amway/Quixtar connection well known. Such things damage the credibility of people saying them as well. Unfortunately it also damages the credibility of IBOs not saying them too.

    As for the small business failure rate, you’re forgetting the many people who work from home or other non-retail type locations. According the Census bureau Nonemployers account for a majority of all business establishments and there was nearly 22 million of them in 2007. I don’t think claiming a 95% small business failure rate is some unethical tactic. Just today I was reading a book from 200 by a Professor of Marketing and he mentioned the same statistic. The study often cited to support the claim it’s wrong only considers small businesses with employees – yet nonemployers account for more than all the small businesses and all larger businesses combined!

    So, it’s been mentioned in many places. It may be wrong, it may be right. Until confirmed one way or the other it probably shouldn’t be mentioned. I’m not going to call someone unethical for believing a statistic they’ve repeatedly read in reputable books though.

  23. Well, you could also point out the perfect water fiasco by some upline leaders, the denial that Quixtar had any connection to Amway.

    As for small business, it is not true that 95% of small )conventional) businesses fail in the first year. If that were true, i would see a hoard of new stores everytime I went to my local shopping mall. This is, IMO a tactic my some unethical upline to make the Amway opportunity look more attractive.

  24. Jeffrey,

    Thanks for speaking from personal experience rather than directing your criticism to all LOAs/systems. I’m glad that you’ve adapted and are making Amway work for you. I agree that was wrong when your up-line put that much pressure on you to go to the function. I’m glad that you’ve found reconciliation with your up-line Diamond.

  25. IBOFB: They simply don’t know what they’re talking about. What’s sad is that many “beliefs” about the Amway business are based not on reality, but on these “false facts” and ignorance – perhaps sadder though is that many people investigating the Amway business read these sites and believe them.

    Joecool says: 95% of small businesses fail in the first year. The better business bureau endorses Amway. Amway saves marriages. You save 30% by purchasing thru Amway. You cannot succeed without tools.

    And how do these kinds of statements by IBOs give credibility to Amway supporters?

    1. Joecool – if untrue, they don’t. I’d note though that all of what you gave as examples there are arguably true. (don’t bother starting with the “small business failure” debate – we simply don’t know. The study that supposedly debunks this claim only analyses firms with employees, not all small businesses).

  26. What discussion?

    Stuff that has nothing to do with the topic (THE CREDIBILITY OF AMWAY CRITICS) of this blog post?

    Wow. How’s your ego ibofightback? Seems people would rather rift off of Mr. Derailer’s comment. I even got side-tracked there. Funny. After over two years of his games and I still fell for it!

    Keeps me humble. 😉

    {{shakes her head and goes to bed}}

  27. If I can add my 2PV here, I have seen it from both sides.

    The LOS I am in did used to have an agressive, to the point of being abusive, tool and function system. As new IBOs came into the business, their list and their first meetings were almost secondary to getting them on Standing Order Tape (CD now), Book-of-the-Month, and tickets to all the functions: Local rallies, regionals, and 5 (yes, five) major functions a year. The dropout rate was very high as the upline Diamond was more concerned with getting people on the tools and to the functions than with results. I once had a Silver Producer leg that now does between 600 and 1000 PV.

    I remember my sponsors, who at that time were Platinum, literally backed me up against their garage door and demanded that I buy 2 tickets to a major function. I bought one, went by myself, was mad the whole time, and vowed I would never go to a major function again. The next week, I got off S.O.T. and dropped Book-of-the-Month. I pretty much went inactive with my LOS for quite some time, except for personal use and servicing my customers. During that time I did, in fact, write a presentation and training manual, sent it in to the company and got it approved (this was before accreditation), Amway got a copyright on it and licensed it back to me and my group for exclusive use, but I never really got to use it, as my wife and I lost our custody battle and my granddaughter went missing which began our battle with the states of Iowa and Texas, which is still going on today and which has been well publicized on these blogs.

    I started to get active again several years ago when Amway (then Quixtar) had a convention in Grand Rapids, then they started up the Opportunity Zone and I started blogging. During the course of these few years, I have made some connections with some key people at Amway and have learned that they have a program for IBOs who are “independents” that either don’t have an LOS to work for various reasons or choose not to work with their uplines. So I have recently started working directly with the company. We have use of an exclusive website, webinars, and eventually we will have use of exclusive company-produced literature. Also, you might want to check out my comments “Do IBOs in Amway need training and motivation or not?” on my blog, http://www.extremelybize.blogspot.com. I don’t think anything you read on there will be any surprise to those who follow my postings.

    Yes, I think many tool/function systems used to be abusive, or overly agressive. I think it has, indeed, changed dramatically. I get along with my upline Diamond now, I respect how he wants to build the business, and I think he respects how I want to build the business. I also think the numbers are way down as he used to have his own major functions, but now has them in conjunction with other Diamonds. I don’t think the tools and functions are pushed near as much as they used to be, because I think people have realized that they need some tools and some functions, just not ALL of them.

  28. So MichMan…other than “speculate” on stuff not relating to the topic of this blog post, do you have anything to add that is on point?

    Like the credibility, or lack of credibility, of Amway critics?

    That is the topic of this blog post, in case you missed it in the 1,100+ words that ibofightback wrote.

  29. Fine. Then exchange the word “abusive” for “overly aggressive.”

    OK.

    So MichMan, When did you stop being overly aggressive towards your wife?”

  30. I thought “many – a – diamond” rents their homes?

    Hey IBOFB, I’ll be in Europe next month. Shall we meet for a drink? 🙂

  31. Fine. Then exchange the word “abusive” for “overly aggressive.”

    I am questioning whether Ron Puryear’s tool business is as profitable today, after accredidation rules have supposedly reigned in “overly aggressive” tactics, as they were 10 years ago when Amway tool systems in the US were a free for all.

    Satisfied?

  32. MichMan,

    Your comment is inflammatory.

    Your “question” implies that Ron Puryear’s tool business EVER had “abusive tactics.”

    It’s like me asking you, “So MichMan, when did you stop beating your wife?”

  33. All I am doing is asking questions.

    I am questioning whether Ron Puryear’s tool business is as profitable today, after accredidation rules have supposedly reigned in abusive tactics, as they were 10 years ago when Amway tool systems in the US were a free for all.

  34. “I was just saying…”

    No, you weren’t “just saying.” You were implying crap, like you always do MichMan.

    Do you know why the River House was built in the first place? It was to be a family compound for Ron and Georgia Lee and their two grown sons and their sons’ families. It was like three separate living spaces in one large home. While under construction, their youngest son died suddenly and shockingly in his sleep. He was young, in his 20s. He was also a Platinum in his parents’ organization.

    At that point, the Puryears questioned the future of the River House, as their reason for building it, well, had died.

    It then became a home that they shared with their WWDB organization and a place to invite and have friends and family over. It is not their primary house of residence.

    From my POV, it makes financial sense to sell that place, given that it’s only used a few times a year. The original intention of its creation is no longer valid. And its next intention for its existence does not justify its expense. Even if it is totally paid off (which I don’t know if it is or isn’t) I’m sure the upkeep on a place the size of a hotel is quite pricey.

    So sit down MichMan. This is a subject you know nothing about.

  35. Having a house on the market does not mean you need to sell it. Many folk put houses on the market just to see what shows up. My dad has had his home on the market for a decade. He’s willing to sell it if someone will pay what he wants, but otherwise he’s quite happy to stay.

    This is just another example of the gossip mongering that seems to make up so much of all Amway critics have to talk about these days.

    A couple getting on in years have an enormous house they don’t need any more. Why wouldn’t they put it on the market? That makes perfect sense, no exotic theories needed. The Duncan’s apparently got into a tax dispute. They’ve still clearly got assets way outstripping the debts but are foreclosing for whatever reason. A couple of others have houses on the market. Big deal! Stuff like this happens in business and life all the time.

  36. I was just speculating as to why so many Diamonds are suddenly selling their houses.

    You are in WWDB. You have been the one claiming that tools and functions are not pushed as forcefully as they once were.

    All I am saying is that it seems interesting that these homes came up for sale at the same time that the tool business is becoming more “balanced” and seemingly less abusive.

    BTW, do you honestly believe that Ron Puryear would state on a voice mail that he could not afford his home anymore because people had reduced their purchases of business support materials and convention tickets?

    **************

    A man generally has two reasons for doing a thing. One that sounds good, and a real one.
    J. P. Morgan

    **************

  37. Or could it be that the Puryears just don’t want/need that house anymore?

    Ron sent a message down several weeks ago, letting us know why they were putting the house up for sale. Smartly, he said in so many words, he wanted every one to know before they read garbage (my word, not his) on the Internet.

    He also said that they were in no hurry to sell, and that they’d “put it on the market and see what happens.”

    Michman, You crack me up with your “stuff.” 🙂

    Grasping at straws my funny little critics, grasping at straws… 🙂

  38. It seems interesting that at this same time many US Diamonds have their million dollar mansions up for sale. At least one is in a very public bankruptcy.

    http://www.amquix.info/wwdb_house_sale.html

    Could it be that the reason these Diamonds cannot afford their homes any longer is because they cannot push business support materials on their downlines as forcefully as they did when they first purchased their homes?

    Or maybe Amway’s accredidation process has cramped their style so much that they cannot operate the way they once did. If so, bravo for Amway Corp.

    Maybe it is that the internet has made the naive prospects much more savy to the tool business versus the Amway business shown on the boards every evening. Thus, fewer people are lured into the business by flimsy promises and costly omissions.

    And it could be simply that with the poor state of the economy, people do not have extra hundreds of dollars to spend each month on “the system.”

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