Amway critics and credibility – another one bites the dust

When you read stuff on the internet, it’s difficult to know what’s true and what’s not – generally all one can do is assess an authors credibility by what they say and how accurate it is. Everyone makes mistakes occasionally, but if people are making major errors of fact in their posts … well, it damages their credibility. If those errors are about what their entire post and/or blog is about, it damages the credibility of everything they post. Amway critics regularly try to damage the credibility of this site by attacking me (with often wildly inaccurate claims) rather than what I say and the information I present. It doesn’t matter, this site isn’t about me, I don’t care what you think about me – judge the credibility of what I write. Is it generally accurate? Do I backed it up by sources when I can? Judge what I write, not me. When someone resorts to ad hominem what it really does is reveal how little logical and factual basis the attacker has to try to discredit the other person – if you can’t attack the argument, attack the person.

So what’s the credibility of the Amway critics like? For just two examples, it was discovered several years ago that prolific Amway critic Scott Larsen didn’t know the basics of the 4% leadership bonus and a number of his supposed Amway business “analysis” were based on a complete fallacy. More recently an Indian blogger, Shyam Sundar with the impressively named “Corporate Fraud Watch” blog referred to the 6% bonus level as “ruby” and has made various other claims about Amway that show he has no actual idea how the business works. Now, these guys aren’t necessarily being dishonest here (unlike JoeCool) – they’re just ignorant. They simply don’t know what they’re talking about. What’s sad is that many “beliefs” about the Amway business are based not on reality, but on these “false facts” and ignorance – perhaps sadder though is that many people investigating the Amway business read these sites and believe them.

Today I encountered yet another example of the kind of prolific ignorance I’m talking about. I’ve noticed over the last few years that (the TEAM debacle aside) there’s been a real drop in the number of Amway critics on the internet, in particular those who have had any actual experience with the business. Surprisingly, most Amway critics on the ‘net have had no personal experience at all with Amway and those that have been Amway distributors had their experiences as much as a decade or more ago. Yet many of these same critics all keep claiming nothing has changed with Amway – that even the legitimate criticisms they had (and there are quite a few) still apply in 2009. If so, where are all the new Amway critics?

To their credit, they do seem to realise that the lack of new Amway critics, and the lack of activity on anti-Amway internet forums, must mean something. But what? I think it means that many of the aspects of Amway (primarily how some people approached the business, and prospects) have been significantly improved over the last decade. Amway has for example implented things like accreditation for Amway Global (North America), ensuring those offering training and motivational products and services to Amway business owners have clear guidelines about what they can and cannot say and do. Amway has also terminated numerous Diamonds and above over the past decade or so. Indeed it’s interesting to note that former Emerald Eric Scheibler’s upline Diamond Fred Harteis is no longer with Amway. Neither are various Diamonds and above in the upline of former Emerald Jeff Probant. Indeed, I believe even Scott Larsen’s upline (for his very small time in the business) is out.

Things have changed.

Amway critics though have come up with another reason for the lack of new Amway critics – the business in North America must be dying, nobody new is joining, so there’s no new critics. This is a semi-plausible explanation – except it doesn’t seem backed up by any facts. Amway Global sales were probably down slightly last year, but may even have gone up – and this is in the context of some 30,000 active IBOs leaving in the TEAM debacle. This would seem to be evidence that other groups within Amway must be growing quite significantly, not shrinking. Furthermore, and this is anecdotal so needs to be treated with appropriate caution, I’ve had reports from multiple different sources that sponsoring rates in North America are up significantly this year. Traffic on my sites, AmwayWiki, AmwayWatch, AmwayTalk and The Truth About Amway has increased by more than 200% in the past year. Amway Global Achieve magazine continues to recognize page after page of new Silver Producers and above. Amway critics have no idea whether Amway Global is growing or not, they’re just idle gossipers. I’m reminded of a post I did last year, where I highlighted an Amway critic claiming a certain Emerald’s business was falling apart, he was no longer qualifying, and he was probably going to have to get a job. The only problem was … this “Emerald”, whose business was supposedly falling apart, had just qualified Diamond!

And that’s what this post is about – credibility – and for that I give you this quote from Amway critic Rocket, today explaining why the numbers of platinums being recognized by Amway Global has no bearing on whether Amway Global is growing or shrinking –

You could have a guy in Canada who immigrated from India, and sponsors his friends back in India, but nobody else in Canada, yet still attains a platinum pin.

No Rocket, you can’t. Platinum volume comes entirely in market – ie, if you are recognized as a new Platinum in North America, it doesn’t matter if you’ve got a Crown Ambassador in a leg in China – his volume does not count towards your Platinum volume. This isn’t some secret knowledge – knowing what’s required to qualify Platinum is one of the most basic pieces of information even a beginning Amway business owner would want to know. Yet rocket, who has been commenting on Amway for years, including running his own anti-Amway blog for more than 4 years … well, he doesn’t even know this basic piece of information.

And it’s not just RocketJoeCool commented on Rocket’s post and didn’t seem to notice this major blunder at the heart of it. Scott Larsen added his thoughts as well – no mention from him of the blunder either, nor from another critic  “mrmaximum”. None of these Amway critics seem to know even this basic tenet of the Amway business – do people really believe what these guys write?


145 thoughts on “Amway critics and credibility – another one bites the dust”

  1. Yes, 40 people and 1000PV is not good. Australian vital signs in our organisation would be doing 1000PV with more like 20 to 30 in the network. I did, in Australia. Mike says he left his Aussie business and in 1 year it dropped to under 100PV. I walked away from my Aussie business (admittedly bigger than his but not “enormous in scale” and with no active business builders) and TEN years later, the volume goes up and down, but it has never once dropped below 100PV. That’s after more than a decade.

    Same products, same market, same business plan. Clearly we did something differently.

  2. Hi Mark,

    I’ve read the dialogue between you and visioneer, and I’d just like to point out a few things:

    1) You two are in different markets–you in Australia, visioneer in the United States.

    2) You state things as fact when, in reality, they are opinion.

    3) You two were in different “systems”, with different ways/methods of building an Amway business.

    Below I elaborate on why the above points matter:

    1A) The economic climate/realities in Australia are not the same as the United States.
    The product lines and product pricing are not the same in Australia as they are in the United States, particularly what’s happened in the States over the last two years.
    The technology used to order/receive products, communicate between the Corp and the IBOs, and train IBOs are not the same in Australia as they are in the United States.

    2A) You feel that conventional business is easier than an Amway Business, and you site that one can borrow lots of cash to start a conventional business from a bank, and imply that this is a good thing.
    Personally, and it’s just my opinion, I don’t like/want that in my life. I know many “conventional” business owners, and the hours the work, the price they need to pay, their burdens, are not what I want. It’s not right or wrong. It’s just not what I want.

    3A) Having 40 people and running 1,000 PV is incredibly low. I am not surprised that everyone quit—no one was making any money

    I am quite familiar with visioneer’s “system” and 40 people, the way his system” teaches, would be running (on the low end, so even if some of these people were just consumers and not business builders) would be a 4,000 PV business.

    If you have 40 people, then you did not have 40 business owners. If your first circle was weak and unprofitable in and of itself, then you duplicated weak and unprofitable circles.

    It sounds to be that you were part of an organization that taught the “self-consumption” model. Here is a video of Rich DeVos from Achievers 2006, in the U.S. There are four parts, but here is part two which explains the “danger” of such a model…

    All that to say, while I hear what you are saying, and agree that that was your experience, I do not agree that everyone’s experience with the Amway Business is or needs to be yours.

    It’s HOW one builds their Amway Business that makes all the difference.

  3. Hi Visioneer: its funny reading comments like this. I used to think the same way, and would spout the same lines. Now that i have done both, i am well positioned to make a comment, and i can tell you that conventional business is easier.

    Re the cost side, that is a big maybe. If you are doing Amway seriously, the costs can quickly become very similar!

    You can gear up/ leverage far easier into a conventional business also, as banks will lend against conventional business assets…

    I agree that most IBO’s do not apply the required effort, however i think you are on dangerous ground if you actually believe that you genuinely own your amway business. Try walking away, or try selling it… Try going to a bank and try putting your amway business on your balance sheet, to borrow against it, and see how it goes.

    Unless you are have a truly substantial business, i’m sorry but you don’t really own anything.

    I mean, what do you own? U don’t own the downline… The company and your upline will have a lot to say if you try and drag your team into another programme, or do anything at all with the downline. You don’t own any IP, you don’t own any hard assets, you don’t actually own anything.

    This is one of the big lies/spin that AMO’s promote… the whole Kiosaki quadrant business ownership stuff…. very very very few IBO’s will ever become true business owners with their Amway distributorship, hence my position in the first post.

    I walked quietly from my team of 40 ppl, and we were doing 1000 Plus PV a month, because i discovered the tools scam.

    In less than 1 year, the team was doing less than 100PV a month (My parents in law enrolled me, and they stayed in, so i still had access to the data via them)

    If you walk away, your business will very quickly evaporate, unless you have enormous scale… And even then, just look at what is happening here in Australia…

    Look at Bert Gulicks team…. he had over 50,000 people in his group, and 30 odd diamonds, then the TIF debacle happened… then Mona Vie happened, and half of his Australian business is gone…. So what does even Bert G really own?? Hopefully he has parlayed his amway/ida earnings into real assets like real business’s, stocks, real estate etc…..Interesting that…. they even teach that if i recall.. build your amway business so that you can buy real business’s and assets like we have…. Can you see it?? Why not just go straight to the real business bit?

    They feed you this line that real business is expensive, but that is not necessarily so..

    I reiterate that the AMO books are a great grounding for going out into the conventional world, where you are far more likely to get the success that you are looking for….

    My best friend had an even bigger Melaleuca team than me (he enrolled me!), and stopped working that the same time i did. He then went on to another programme, (Zooma) and went full time in that. He put over 500 people in, and was doing 30,000 USD a month in volume. That was 2 years ago. After working that programme hard full time for a year, he still wasn’t making an ordinary full time money, even as an experienced networker with a big team. So a mere 18 months ago, he started a conventional business (mortgage broker). It cost him probably $1500 AUD to set up. He now makes over 100K a year (AUD), working 25 hours a week, with a monthly trail(passive income) of over 4K AUD, more than he has ever made in networking…

    Expensive? No. Special skill involved? No. Am i saying go become a M Broker? No! I’m just demonstrating my point..

    I am saying that both my friend and I have found success much much easier outside of MLM. BTW, am i a M Broker? No! We are in very different fields…

    I am very experienced, have had a large MLM team, and have seen a lot over the last 10 years… I hope everyone here can gain some perspective and leverage of my decade of learning’s….

    Warm Regards,

  4. Mark,

    Thanks for keeping the debate civil, I appreciate that.

    I would have to dispute your statement of “I can almost guarantee” someone would find greater success in the conventional world. What I have found is when IBO’s leave the biz and go into a conventional business, they put far more time and effort into making it work than they ever did in their A/G biz. Most IBO’s are really wholesale buyers, they perhaps tried to show the plan a few times, and perhaps have a few customers, but really the problem is a lack of effort on their part. I would call these IBO’s, Imitation Business Owners, versus Independent Business Owners. I am not denigrating them, just giving an honest evaluation of their time and commitment to their business.
    If more IBO’s would really put in a true part-time effort of 10-15 hours a week, the success rate would be much higher.

    Most conventional businesses have much higher expenses, and a lot more time commitment, there is really no comparison when you compare the two.

  5. Ok, here we go. My name is Mark, and I would fall into the Amway critic church.

    I posted a fair bit several years ago, but haven’t posted anything since then, and have just come across this site/discussion, so I though that I would pen a few thoughts.

    I would echo the sentiments expressed above: it seems that I “left” yesterday…the same people and lots of the same discussion….

    I stopped because it became apparent to me, that 1) whilst someone was under the spell/influence of “the system”, intelligent meaningful discussion was virtually impossible (ibofightback/insider is probably one of the few exceptions to this…) The power of the systems so comprehensively alters someone’s perceptions, that it is difficult to be truly objective whilst in it: that was certainly 100% the case with me!! I would attack anyone who questioned Amway and me ferociously! And 2) closely related to the above, that I had far better things to do with my time. I had nothing to gain, and it was taking up too much time. Also, dwelling on the some of the junk, and dredging up some of the stuff from the past just didn’t serve me.

    I am heartened to see the position that IBOfightback has adopted on a range of issues, and I would wager that we probably agree on the vast vast majority of issues.

    We need to recognize that horrible abuses and outrageous things have happened, (and probably still are happening) particularly within the “aggressive systems”

    We need to recognize that there are groups out there who are doing the right thing, and that AMWAY itself is probably a reasonable company today.

    We need to recognize that critics, whether 100% correct all of the time or not, have actually done enormous, positive things for AMWAY. Bringing a lot of these very real issues out into the open I believe, has created a lot of positive change. Amway is probably a much better organisation today as a result. The abuses and lies had to be told. The practices and deceptions had to come out. I believe there is still some work to be done here, but I am encouraged by what I have seen!!

    I was involved in IDA here in Australia. My primary complaint was always with the system side, not so much the corporation side. My only real issue with the company was that they knowingly allowed a lot of the system junk to keep going for so long: they should have had the courage to stand up to the kingpins, but aside from that, it was always about the systems… Now I see that IDA is collapsing, so that is very encouraging for sure.

    So perhaps there is less need for critics today… it seems as mentioned, that good progress in the right direction is been made.

    I would however warn the pro Amway people that when you come across as a zealot, you are just reinforcing to everyone how systematized you are: you just remind me of how I used to be, so I understand completely: but now with some good perspective and experience, I can see it for how it is.

    I would also add that after putting together a team of 40 odd people in amway/ida in 2 years, as a young and impressionable 21 year old, I then went on to put together a team of over 250 people in Melaleuca in a similar time frame. Building the second business, without a single iota of a “system” was much much easier… Hmmm interesting thought that.

    I haven’t done a thing with Mela for 3 years now, and I still have a significant team, but let’s be clear, I am not promoting it. Do not misconstrue any of my thoughts as an attempt to promote mela. I don’t think MLM of any kind is the answer actually.

    More profoundly, since then I have found success in conventional business even easier still!!

    Today, now that I am older and wiser, I can see that 1) you shouldn’t attach yourself to pretty much anything. There are always solutions and other ways. MLM is not a panacea. Amway or N21 or Melaleuca is not a panacea. 2) Almost everyone has an agenda: Real estate agents will tell you that now is a great time to buy a house, whilst simultaneously telling someone that now is a good time to sell their house. There is always some kind of story. Everyone needs to apply some healthy skepticism to anything that they are told, by someone who has something to gain from them…

    Building Amway is expensive and not easy, despite anything that you are told, with low success rates. Almost all MLM is, again, despite what any promoter will tell you. You will almost certainly find more success in the conventional corporate/business world. Take the 20 books that you have collected whilst being in the system, ferociously study them and absorb them, and apply it in your own life, and then go out into the conventional world, and I can almost guarantee that you will find a heap of what you are looking for.

    Finally, always keep in mind that the someone like me, as a critic, has much less at stake, and virtually nothing to gain from discussions like this, unlike the pro people.

    I wish you all the very best.

  6. Mark, if you’re still there, Visioneer is an encourager. Just so that you didn’t misunderstand his comment, I think he meant that it’s great you made a decision, took action, and are now moving on to better things for your life.

  7. mark,

    Sorry to hear you didn’t feel the services in WW were valuable. I’ve found them to be awesome in value and price. I think its great that you left.

  8. Mark wrote, “The Amway products were always priced higher than anything comparable. They were only a great value if you had a huge downline. They were not very marketable to the general public as they could get comparable or better quality for significantly less price.”

    If that’s what you believe about the products, you’re not going to try to sell them anyways. Therefore, the world supports your belief. It’s my belief that people who make statements like yours haven’t made enough sales attempts, with the right attitude, to claim that our products are “not very marketable”. You say that the Amway laundry products are a good value. Can’t you find cheaper laundry products out there that seem to perform sufficiently? What makes you choose Amway laundry products? Is it because they’re friendly to the environment, contain no fillers, get stuff really clean? Many Amway products have a story. Price isn’t the whole story.

  9. I was in WWDB for years. I left a year ago. They still pushed the rerun CD’s, same boring functions that were miles from your home. The tool and function part of World Wide is a huge money maker. For those of you that think they are not pushing the tool sales, take a look at Premiere Membership. It’s about $50 a month for a worthless website that is less powerful than a free blog. No business person would ever send a new customer through wwdb’s site.

    ComminiKate is a total scam. That alone is about $40. Then the new cheaper priced cds at $3 or so.

    All of this is repeat business for the upline. Talk about gravy train!

    The diamonds would always talk about the basics of the business and that there is nothing new. So why a repeat tape every week? Why a quarterly function?

    The functions were always held in a dark auditorium and you heard someones story. They went all day with hardly any breaks. There was not much room for socializing. Besides, they always said not to “cross-line”.

    The Amway products were always priced higher than anything comparable. They were only a great value if you had a huge downline. They were not very marketable to the general public as they could get comparable or better quality for significantly less price.

    I still buy Amway laundry products. The core line products are great and are priced decent. I signed up as a whole sale customer with a friend. Whole in AMway equals retail.

  10. Today I read one of Joecool’s articles on the blog called “The Truth About The Amway Global Opportunity”.

    His article is titled “Amway Global – Prospecting?” Apart from the obvious crap he comes up with, he also makes typos.

    For example, he wrote “Are you hanging out at Starbucks and at malls looking for “sharr” people?” and then someone replied to him in very much Joecool’s own words. What Joecool did was to change “sharr” to “sharp” and then ask the guy what was he talking about as if it was the guy who wrote “sharr”.

    At other times Joecool comes up with claims he never made a specific statement because it was the audience who misunderstood him by spinning the upline Amway propaganda.

    He’s full of crap.

  11. IBOFB wil deny it but he posted my confidential email on his previous blog. That incident was followed up by my receipt of two emails to my former email account. One made up email address was made with my last name and the other with my first name in the address. One of them mentioned some websites I had posted on, the other email told me I better watch out for my family.

    IBOFB has a bad memory when it comes to his mistakes and lies.

    1. Joecool it is you who is lying. As you well know (and I still have the screenshots to prove it if I must) your supposed “confidential” email address was posted on every single one of the thousands of posts you had made on QuixtarBlog. It was not confidential, it was public – anyone could get it simply clicking on the email link on any one of your thousands of posts.

      Now, you (1) have not explained the mysterious change of date on the alleged Ryan Hicks post and (2) have not explained why both you and Tex are supposedly using the same email address … which I again repeat YOU made public in a comment above reposting what you claimed is correspondence YOU had with somebody.

      For the record, I’ll note that Joecool as now changed the email address he’s using to post on this site to something different to the one he included in his earlier comments. Care to explain why you changed it?

  12. Well I found the “original” Ryan Hicks comments on an old Qblog thread. JoeCool has reposted them all over the ‘net. Interestingly on the QBlog forums he reposts them saying they came from the Random Observations blog. Go to the RO blog and they are indeed there – posted by himself. That’s a little dishonest isn’t it?

    What do you reckon the odds are that the original “Ryan Hicks” posts were the work of JoeCool in the first place? It wouldn’t surprise me at all. Was it just coincidence that “ryan” and JoeCool were both part of WWDB? Just coincidence that while “joecool” is part of the discussion with “ryan”, Ryan never refers to joecool, but addresses numerous other commenters by name? A bit too hard to keep up a direct conversation with yourself was it JC?

    Seems you may have started your deceptions early …..

  13. I’m guessing you’re using Tex’s email address to post here aren’t you? So as well as faking the dates (if not the whole emails) on the Ryan Hicks posts, you’re also fraudulently posting using somebody elses information.

    You do realise that’s a serious Federal criminal offence?

  14. Funny how IBOFB decries ad hominem attacks in this blog post.

    ” Now here’s something weird …. why would Tex also be using the email address”

    Answer: Because this is a lie: Your email is never published nor shared. Isn’t that right IBOFB?

    What the heck are you ranting on about JoeCool? You posted the address as your address in the comments above and Tex also posted the address on his blog in the link given.

    So what “lie” are you babbling about? Are you AGAIN accusing me of revealing your email address, like you falsely did in the “JoeCool Threat” saga, when you’re the one who did it?

    Care to explain? Quite frankly I’m confused.

  15. What’s even more telling is that I’ve found JoeCool reposting these “Ryan Hicks” comments from 2005 on at least five separate sites! He posted them here, on “Random Observations” on QuixtarBlog,on the QuixtarBlog forums, and on QIACS website.

    Funnily enough, the “original” Ryan Hicks comments can mysteriously not be found …..

    As for your last “repost” – a guy is admitting that HE was actively lying to people, and he wonder why it didn’t work? I for one am glad he’s out!

  16. Funny how IBOFB decries ad hominem attacks in this blog post.

    ” Now here’s something weird …. why would Tex also be using the email address”

    Answer: Because this is a lie: Your email is never published nor shared. Isn’t that right IBOFB?


    My wife and I were in Network 21 (founded by Jim & Nancy Dornan) a few years back, and we too were duped by the cheap glamour and promise of a better life. We were in for about 3 years, and on all the required education materials from the get-go — tapes, books, meetings, as per usual — to the tune of $3,500 per year. But in all that time we signed up, count them, 2 people. “2 people?! That pathetic!” And yes it is… but my problem was from day-1 was this nagging little voice
    in my head — the one telling me I can’t commit to lying to my friends and perfect strangers:

    “It’s not Amway”
    “10-15 hours per week tops”
    “$200 is all it’ll ever cost”
    “A sure-fire vehicle to financial security & freedom”

    Even then I realised it was all a load of bollocks. I think it’s called your “conscience”. But sadly I had no problem lying to myself for 3 years; I guess that makes me the worst kind of sucker. In the end it became grossly obvious we were never going to make a success of this thing, and I grew tired of subsidising Jim Dornan’s luxurious lifestyle, so we got out.

  18. (ETA: written prior to the last JC post above, in response to the “Ryan” post)

    Gee, that’s 2 emails from 3 years!! Out of what – a couple of million involved in the US in that time? Wow, these “abuses” are rife aren’t they? :-/ (1) Greg Duncan said nothing bad (2) the “upline” commenting about university could have been an IBO little more experienced than him. (3) that sounds more like a post you or some other critic would write than a real post.

    Oh but wait … it wasn’t even from 2007! Here you are reposting the exact same comment in 2005! Why’d you change the date JoeCool, did 4 years ago seem to far away, thought you better “edit” it a little for impact? How often do you do that?

  19. From: “Marylin XXXX

    Ok first question yes there’s a $350 fee to get started.

    2)no meetings aren’t required but if you want your business to grow meetings give you ideas and motivation to continue. So meetings are not required but you cannot succeed without them.

    3) go to press business option, 5min video,after you watch it log on.

    4) if you do what the upline teaches, you are almost assured of making about $50,000 a year for life.

    5) no, I did not achieve $50,000 yet as I have only been in business for 7 months. I am on my way though.

  20. I am half way to eagle. I registered a couple of really good friends I went to highschool last year with. My upline said that I don’t need to go to university, all that will get me is a useless piece of paper. The best case sceranco there is that I get a JOB.

    I AM going to be retiring in the next 6 mths no matter what you guys say. Greg Duncan said in a night owl that the world is full of people trying to tear other people down and that’s all you guys are doing. Well, I won’t let you win.

    I was having problems with my parents and they kicked me out because I chose not to go to university. My upline said that it was for the best and helped me find a place to live. These people really care about me and my future. Why would they want to hurt me.

    And by the way I hit personaly 750pv last mth! So there!

    Posted by: Ryan XXXX at July 27, 2007 08:29 PM

  21. Just to clarify, by other causes, I meant that you could put your effort to doing something that affects people in a positive way. What you are doing is discouraging people who have a legitimate shot at building a legitimate business if they build it right.

    Sad, sad, sad case.

  22. jc,

    Your website is much more than an “opposing view”. Also, much more telling is your posts on other blogs. I think one could safely assume that its much more than just warning people about “abuses” as the reason you have posted and continue to post thousands of negative comments.

    In my opinion, there are many greater causes to put forth your effort too. This business has helped me and many hundreds of thousands of other people. Globally, its helped millions. You choose to only look at the negative. I understand that there have been abuses and it will continue to happen as this business has people in it. As long as there are people in an organization, there will be problems. But at least the corporation has taken significant steps to minimize them as much as possible.

    I feel sorry for you, get some help.

  23. Here’s a fairly recent email:

    From: Michael XXXX

    Subject: Re: Business Ad

    Date: Friday, October 10, 2008, 2:09 AM

    Hey, thanks for the reply, I would be happy to tell you what i do, and who i work for.
    I am what you call and IBO or independent business owner, its a franchise you can buy in for only 160.00 dollars. Basically the key to making money and plenty of it is to recruit other people to sign up and start their own business. With starting your own business you sell Quixtar’s products, and they have everything, so its not hard for anybody to find something they like, also Quixtar has 30 partner companies such as: Cirucuit City, PacSun, Nascar etc.

    Everytime you sign up one of your friends, or family members, whoever to become an IBO, everytime they sell something YOU make money, thats whats called a training bonus, because when you sign somebody up, you become their upline.

    So basically its an easy way to make money if you put forth the effort, they are the largest beauty and health retailer in the country, and you get wholesale on their products, and they have a great line of vitamins, and their partner stores, adidas, columbia,, etc. all have great products for you and the consumer. If you are interested in starting your own business, let me know, i would be happy to help you sign up and answer any questions you have, also i would show you whats called the “plan” , which has the goal of making you 80,000 dollars your first year.

    To be successful, you need to be a part of the system. It includes voicemail, seminars and some training cd’s. If you do what upline advises, your success is guaranteed. But remember you need to work.

    Let me know if you want more info.

  24. IBOFB,

    And your posting of false information about me on Amway Wiki?

    One of the ways I get information is to repond to various IBOs on blogs or networking sites and then I ask them, usually by email about their Amway business. And much to my surprise, much of the same stuff I heard as an IBO, I still hear today.

    Diamonds apparently still put down jobs, they still talk about residual income, make up income claims and downplay the amount of effort needed to build a business. They still tell prospects and new IBOs that they “need” to attend functions. They still call people’s jobs a pyramid. They still try to display wealth to recruit others. Some diamonds still are not open about how one can participate in tools income. Some people are told that they don’t need college, Amway is better.

    Not all leaders do this. I’m not even suggesting that most leaders do this. But I will say that there are enough of them out there where it is a concern. Why do you think Amway’s name reputation is in the tank? Because people had good experiences with IBOs and Amway?

    When the majority of people who join Amway lose money, even with an earnest effort, how can anyone promote this as a viable opportunity to earn income?

    1. I’ve posted no information I know to be false about you on AmwayWiki. If there’s anything false then you should either edit it yourself or let me know and I’ll do it for you. As for your other comments, if the “bad” things you say are happening (and much of what you say isn’t “bad” or wrong) it would seem to be from a very small minoríty of Diamonds and not reflective of the whole. As such an honest reporting would note that it’s a minority and not reflective of Amway. You instead write as to suggest it’s typical.

      With regards the IBO email, (1) nothing in that talks about what a “leader” has taught him, and (2) there’s nothing particularly wrong either. He says “success is guaranteed” which is over the top. $80,000/yr is also over the top, but not impossible. He also is clearly trying to avoid the Amway name by using Quixtar and he should say “kind of like a franchise” rather than franchise, which has a legal definition. None of what he says would I consider evidence of “upline abuse”.

  25. IBOFB,

    I clearly did not say all upline in WWDB are abusers. But I know what I heard and saw, and I still see posts made by IBOs that confirm that some of the same things that were taught back in my days, are still being taught today. Sure, some of it may have changed, but if there are still some tenured leaders teaching bad practices, how many people have to be subjected to that with no consequences?

    I recently had an IBO claim that he will make $80,000 guaranteed through his group – WWWDB in his first year. Not everyone teaches this I suppose, but I’m sure the IBO I got the message from wasn’t alone when he heard it either.

    Another IBO said he was told by Mr. Duncan that going to college wasn’t important. That same Mr Duncan told the audience I was in how stupid it was to obtain a mortgage because of all the interest. That one bit back didn’t it?
    Brad Wolgamott spoke about his family values. That came back to bite him also? No one is saying these folks have to be perfect, but certainly when they stand on stage and teach and preach these values, they are raising their own bar.

    Don’t you think it’s possible that manybe some things haven’t changed in the last thirteen years? Leopards don’t change their spots. If some of these IBO leaders were greedy and have not been penalized in any serious manner, what reason would they have for changing?

    BTW, where have I been spreading your identity? I call you IBOFB on this and most other forums.

    1. With regards my identity, try every single one of your thousands of posts on QuixtarBlog, where you link to a misleading post which includes personal information about me, including my name, as well as other comments elsewhere you’ve posted the same link.

      With regards WWDB, frankly I find your reports of other IBOs claims somewhat dubious. I, like you, monitor conversation about Amway on the internet and I don’t see the kind of comments you claim appearing. You’ve got what … 15+ year old memories about things you claimed to hear from Greg Duncan about having a mortage. How do you know his opinions haven’t changed? I know my attitude to mortgages over the last 15 years has changed dramatically, as I’ve read works by the likes of Kiyosaki and others. And what about Brad Wolgamott? Apparently he’s getting divorced. That says little about his “family values”. You have no idea the reasons behind his divorce at all. It maybe his “family values” are completely intact – it’s just you’ve chosen, without any evidence, to believe otherwise and malign him.

      One wonders whether your “recollections” are even accurate. The human memory is notoriously malleable – there’s just as much chance (perhaps more!) that statements you claimed to have heard were made by other people altogether, or not at all, yet over the years of consciously attacking these people you’ve convinced yourself of something else. And that’s assuming you’re reporting honestly – and you’ve previously demonstrated quite clearly you’re willingness to lie to defend your claims.

  26. JC/SN,


    Where? What hatred do I have SN?

    You are changing the subject. Surprise, surprise. (not)

    And adding more garbage and more lies. And you dare play the poor victim saying that you’ll be threatened? You’ve GOT to be kidding me.

    IBOFB already did a post on that nonsense, remember?

    His January 11, 2008 entry.

    What you do is jaw-droppingly wrong (spreading lies and attempting to damage people’s reputations).

    Whether it’s Amway IBOs, or those in other industries, I find that reprehensible.

  27. Visioneer,

    My blog is an opposing view. If you see it otherwise, so be it. It’s not a matter of being fixated. I seethe abuses still happening so I continue to share the opposing side of the story.


    1. That’s pretty hilarious. JoeCool reckons there’s all these traumatised “victims” of Amway out there yet he’s happy to spread my identity and location around the ‘net, but to do so himself …. ooohhh …. too scary. He might get some (faked) threats.

      If there truly are all these “victims” JoeCool, don’t you think *I* should be the one who should be worried?

      Now, as for WWDB. Let’s assume (and I have my doubts) that you’re accurately reporting your experience from 15 years ago. You make various claims about what people “taught” back then.

      Don’t you think it’s possible that over the last thirteen years they may actually have changed some of their ideas and teachings? Is that possible?

  28. joecool,

    Aren’t you the one who is supposed to be a Christian but was going on to shall we say “unchristian like” websites? My point is that we may be Christians, but that doesn’t make us perfect. For you to bring in someone’s faith into this discussion just seems like a good way to change the subject.

    Also, your blog is more than just a way to “warn others”, your blog is your way to “get back” at the supposed abuses from your upline and the corporation. Your posts on other blogs and your own show your utter contempt for the people in this business.

    If you’re still fixated on something that happened 13 years ago, I think you need to get some psychological help.

  29. Bridgett,

    You claim to be a Christian and “prayer warrior”. Why are you so full of hatred? Is that what you are taught in church? I have forgiven those who took advantage of me. But I keep on blogging so others will be warned about potential abusive uplines. Certainly you cannot say there aren’t any abusers out there. At least people seeking information can have full disclosure and join knowing what they can expect. I really don’t know where you get the idea that I want “go to guns” with you.

    What will be accomplished if I post my name and immediate upline? Those who lost their homes won’t get them back. Those who followed bad advice won’t get their money and time back. It would just be an opportunity for people to atack or threaten me. It’s been done to other critics.

    I see my posts as an opposing view. I have been civil on this blog. I’m sorry you see that as trolling. What you want is for someone to say Amway is great and have everyone nod in agreement. There’s a reason why people have trouble sponnsoring and sharing the business opportunity and I think you know what those reasons are.

  30. Oh also, to say that “some of the products are different” is a gross understatement. The pricing, pv/bv ratio, free shipping, higher bonuses, and advertising has greatly enhanced this business!

    Jeffrey, sorry to hear about that blog post, but perhaps there are reasons that we are not hearing about from the corporations side that would make some sense to that issue.

  31. I’ve been in WWDB for 15 years and have never missed a major function. I’ve been in close contact with my Diamond for all that time and I’ve NEVER heard him teach to ask your downline for help to reach a pin. In fact, when I’ve been in that situation he’s always taught me to see what they normally do and then do what I need to do on the side of that by retailing or sponsoring more people.
    I’ve also never heard a Diamond teach from stage to go into debt to build the business and I’ve never heard them say to skip a mortgage payment.
    I’ve also had eagle parameters for the last 8 years and have been profitable almost every month of that.

  32. Spare me. You are not truly sorry. Textbook narcissism.

    You knew EXACTLY what you were doing when you SINGLED ME OUT.

    You made it personal, SN.

    There is a reason why I don’t go to your blogs.
    There is a reason why I don’t go to the anti-Amway sites.

    I stopped going to those sites eleven months ago.

    Why ibofb is allowing you back on his site here is beyond me. But here you are–pulling the same crap with me that you’ve done on other sites!

    That is trolling.

    You want to go to guns with me? Really? REALLY??????

    I have nothing to hide. Anyone can click on my name, go to my blog and find out everything about me and my family. The good, the bad, the ugly.

    You, on the other hand don’t use your name. Hmmmm.

    Why don’t you use your real name, SN?

    Why do you only attack Diamonds and above?

    If your experience was so wretched,
    if those in your LOS were so evil,
    if such “abuses” are still going on,

    then why don’t you state YOUR NAME,
    list their offenses?

    Anonymous generic accusations are cowardly at best and immoral at worst.

  33. BTW Bridgett, my experience does not invalidate yours. And your expereince does not invalidate mine. We both just had different experiences within the same group.

    And I do not believe I had a unique experience. I sat through (what was called at the time) a family reunion function and FED and looking back, it’s hard to believe at times.

    I believe when I was an IBO, Amway was actually growing strongly in the US at the time. And then when the tools scam went public, the growth apparently slowed quite a bit.

    Not everything taught by upline was bad. They spoke of people getting out of debt. But then in the next sentence they would say it was okay to go in debt if it’s for the Amway business. Or they would speak of spending time with family, and then tell you to build the business 24/7.

    These examples are real life Bridgett. I am truly sorry you feel that it is trolling.

  34. Bridgett, why do you attack me?

    I stated my experience and other than saying my experience is outdated, you offered no explanation or denial of what I stated.

    My experience, unfortunately for you, is real and valid. And the same leaders who gave bad advice to their own benefit, are still out there and likely still teaching some of the same bad business practices. I think it is significant to name WWDB as much of the abuse “appears” to stem from BWW and WWDB.

    Your experience may be different and I acknowledge that but I sat in functions (with more than ten thousand IBOs) where some of these leaders told people to quit their jobs to attend functions, and how long you can skip a mortgage payment before foreclosure.

    I’m not maligning tens of thousands of people. You are blaming the victims. Many of us trusted what these leaders taught and took their advice to heart. We were told that NOBODY profited from functions. Much of what they taught were false or outright lies. And these lies helped them to profit from downline.

    That’s my real life experience. Your experience may differ
    but my experience was also in WWDB. I’m sorry you tnink that this stuff never happened. I wish it didn’t.

  35. JK/SN

    YOU CHOSE TO BRING ME AND WWDB–by name–INTO YOUR COMMENT. (yet not even using your own name, I might add)

    If you would have just stated YOUR experience, without maligning others (tens of thousands of IBOs who are associated with WWDB), and thus invalidating MY experience (as well as many others) which is COMPLETELY NOT THE ONE YOU HAD, I wouldn’t have said anything.

    You are a troll.

  36. Bridgett,

    Is Ron Puryear and the Duncans still a part of Worldwide? Yes?

    Did Amway change their compensation plans significantly since 1996? No?

    Yes some of the products are different.

    Do some groups, including some in WWDB still teach buy from yourself? Yes?

    Are there still uplines who teach self serving advice? Yes?

    I’m sorry to inform you but people in 2009 can be just as greedy as they were in 1996. Greed is what drives some of these IBO leaders to give bad advice. I’m not saying all of them but there is evidence that there enough of them around to a point where Amway is still called a scam by many. Yes?

    Your attempt to dismiss upline abuse by citing my past experience in Amway as outdated is really not valid. Why don’t you try to debate the merits of what I am saying? Because what I’m saying is true and there is still a lot of evidence on continued upline abuse. Yes?

    By the way, did Greg Duncan speak about renting his home? 🙂

  37. JC/SN

    #1 You were never in my LOS. I have zero experience of your line of sponsorship.

    #2 Your experience is now what, 13 years old?

    When you were in Amway they had bricks called Shaq Bars. And you were Showing the Plan using a honkin’ heavy cardboard box full of cleaning products, drawing circles with a red felt pen on a yellow “network marketing wheel.”

    Yeah, 1996 is just like 38 days shy of 2010. (I’m being sarcastic. Didn’t want to assume you’d catch that. 😉 )

  38. I was in the same LOS as Bridgett and I heard the same thing as StillINAMWAY. Our upline was pushing towards (at the time) Gold Status. Our group was told to dig deep and make it happen. I was in WWDB and this was COMMON practice.

    Although IBOFB has not seen this kind of behavior, I believe it is very common. While it may not be taught in the open at big functions, I sat in on several smaller group meetings where this kind of practice was taught. It’s in these smaller groups where they encourage you to skip your financial obligations to attend functions or to have you kids skip a meal so you can buy more standing orders.

    This kind of advice is drven by greed and unfortunately, greed still exists in many IBO leaders.

  39. I’ve defended this business for over 25 years and I’ve gone through a lot, both good and bad. But what happened to me several weeks ago has really shaken my faith in the business. I was “requested” to take down a post on my blog site and it has made me realize that Tex has been right about the kingpin Diamonds and their “systems” all along. They have the management of the company wound around their finger so tight it stinks. It seems like somebody wants to bind and gag me into submission. It is also amazing to me how I magically ended up again on my upline Diamond’s e-mail list after being out of his system for years. I was even invited to join in a conference call from my upline, which I did. Same old wrong teaching. It is nauseating. I’ve decided to put the business on indefinite hold just to see if anything changes with the systems in the next 6 months. If it doesn’t, then it never will. It makes me puke.

  40. And such approach is completely contrary to how the founders of Amway, Rich DeVos and Jay Van Andel, built their business.

    The Amway Business ROCKS. It’s some people who are Amway IBOS/ABOs who are the problem.

    It’s a good idea to separate the opportunity and the products from some not-so-pleasant people. And to search out those who operate in the manner you want.

    There are many industries who have people that are not the best. The challenge however with businesses like Amway (MLM/Network Marketing) is that it’s a business of duplication. So when you have a handful of “bad apples” it can spread to a bushful and then some, thus giving the appearance that the entire business is operating in such a manner–particularly if one does not put themselves in an environment to meet other IBOs/ABOs who are operating their businesses differently from their upline/crossline/downline.

  41. I thought, i was the one being helped. But i can now count so many times i was asked help. “WE NEED YOUR HELP, YOUR UPLINE IS SHOOTING FOR 12 %”. “(name) IS ALMOST CRYING MAN, WE NEED YOUR HELP. TAKE IT LIKE, M BEGGING YOU MAN”. These came from a man i trusted most and bet my life on. My respected mentor. I wonder how i could not see the other side. This is not in offence with anyone in business. I still see lot of good people in it. MAY BE, THEY JUST DONT KNOW. OR I HOPE THEY WONT DO ANYTHING WRONG TO ANYONE.

    APART FROM all the good things i learnt being in the business. Some good values, amazing books and thinkin about money and future, i do not consider continuing with it anymore. i personally have lied to so many people. GOD FORGIVE ME. HOPE M WRONG ABOUT MY UPLINES, AND WISH THEM GREAT PURE AND CLEAN SUCCESS.

    1. StillInAMWAY – that kind of approach, pushing people to do something for other people’s goals is completely contrary to the approach we use. Indeed I’ve been taught to NEVER do that. Without having researched it properly, my psychology background is also telling me it wouldn’t have little more than short-term effects in exchange for long-term damage.

  42. I am still in the business. But i took some time to prepare to switch my company. i do not consider job an evil, after all its supplimenting for my business. Appropriately, to pay for the debts i incurred.

    I did not ell anyone though, why i took some time off, and i am now being considered negative. My roomate (my upline) has been asked to shift to some other place and all of a sudden, my so called well wishers and life time friends are no where to be seen or heard.

    Though i have no problems with anything, but finally i could see the real face. I still believe the business is good but the way its handled. I feel sorry for everyone in it. GOD BLESS.

    1. Don’t feel sorry for everyone in it, many of us (most?) aren’t having the kind of experience you are. Don’t dismiss the opportunity because of *some* of the people and their approach. If you believe in the business model and products, go and find someone who operates in a way you believe is ethical and professional!

  43. Rocket, Amway did side with the tool mongers and sue Hart and later Stewart over tool disputes with their upline. In that process they were probably kicked out immediately.

    Standard operating procedure for Amway’s legal department is to kick someone out, taking away their income, and force that person into an exorbitantly expensive loser pay arbitration system that is stacked in Amway’s favor.

    So I imagine ibofb is correct in saying they were kicked out.

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