Amway is not a scam – but you can still be scammed.

I’ve had a few interesting discussions lately both online and offline with folk who are absolutely convinced that multi-level marketing and Amway are scams. The discussions have been with highly intelligent and educated people, including one who is a lecturer in entrepreneurship at a school for business. What I’ve discovered is that the reasoning behind their beliefs fall into two areas –

Ignorance, confusion, and misconceptions about MLM

The first is essentially ignorance or misconceptions. MLM suffers greatly by the fact that virtually all illegal pyramid scams claim to be MLMs. When they inevitably fail or are closed down by the government, the meme that “MLM=scam” is reinforced. In reality this is poor logic. The very reason the scams are claiming to be MLMs is because MLMs are legal, legitimate businesses. Nevertheless, the effect on public perceptions is a daunting problem for the legitimate companies.

Associated with this is many misconceptions about how legitimate MLMs operates. Many folk believe we make money by recruiting others, and “smart” people know that means the model will inevitably “saturate” and you can’t make any money since there’s no longer anyone left to recruit. Of course, this isn’t MLM, it’s an illegal pyramid. We don’t make money by recruiting, we make money through sales volume. MLM isn’t really a business model – it’s a marketing strategy with the aim of increasing sales volume. Indeed, in general for any given level of sales, the more people you recruit to achieve it, the less you make on it. It’s no different to owning say a traditional retail store selling clothes. You could sell them all yourself, and keep the whole profit, or could employ some other sales staff. They’ll cost you money, but you hope that the increase in sales will offset the increase in costs.

These types of misconceptions abound, with people concerned about the legitimate problems inherent in illegal pyramids, and believing they exist in multi-level marketing.

Scammers can scam you with Amway

The second area that seems to influence people is their own personal experiences, or those of people they know, or, increasingly, experiences of others they read on the internet. The interesting thing is, when you delve into the problems with those experiences, they very rarely have anything to do with Amway or multi-level marketing per se, they have to do with how some people operate their multi-level marketing businesses.

You can be scammed in any business. A car salesman can knowingly sell you a lemon. A doctor can overcharge you for a simple procedure. A teacher can “force” you to purchase a substandard text book they’d written and printed themselves. An Amway business owner could sell you Double X by telling you it cures cancer, or you can be a millionaire with little work.

In each case you’ve been scammed, but the scam had nothing to do with the car industry, or the medical profession, or teaching, or Amway. It had to do with those individuals (and perhaps some of their associates) and the way they were behaving.

The multi-level marketing strategy, and Amway as it’s largest representative, is a brilliant way of doing business which allows anyone to start and own their own business, of which ever size they desire, with little financial risk, and without having to pursue it full-time. Just like in any other industry however, you can be scammed, and if you’re so inclined, you can scam people, but like any other industry, the scammers rarely last long.

Amway will soon celebrate it’s 50th anniversary. That should say it all.

Post a comment below or Discuss this post on Amway Talk

699 thoughts on “Amway is not a scam – but you can still be scammed.”

  1. It sounds like Scientology to me. You only are taught things if you pay for them first. The more money you invest the more they reveal. For a company that tells me they are trying to help me and that helping others is what they are all about I find it hard to believe that my best interest is what their concern is!

    1. stylz, I don’t know how you get your statement out of the article. It’s wrong on several counts. First of all the vast amount of Amway training is free, and so is much of the training provided by upline. What costs money is buying stuff and attending seminars by 3rd party companies. In fact, again contrary to your claim, the meetings for top achievers held by Amway don’t only not require “more money” invested – they pay for everything!

      It astounds me how many people form views of Amway based on beliefs that are almost the exact opposite of reality!

  2. i came across this site today because i attended a Amway meeting last night. I’ve been introduced to this business plan multiple time by my father and various friends and have never gotten the guts to join, even though every time i try a new product i love it! i would love to talk to some IBOs personally via email ( for some positive reinforcements and business strategies as well. i read bits a pieces of this thread and i keep hearing the word scam or scheme, but i don’t understand how many folks view this as a scam. Amway is recognized by Forbes magazine 2011 as the 28th largest private corporation and the own Amway arena where the Orlando Magic play for Christs sakes! if you are looking to get rich quick than yes you are looking to scam somebody and god will be the judge of you. this is a very easy business to get scammed in but that doesn’t necessarily make the entire business a fraud. I’ve read about certain groups doing under the table things with the BSM material and how all these people are scam artists. To me the saddest thing about people like honesttalk12 will come onto a blog a bash a company and claim fraudulence and its premedical and all this nonsense but his heads so far up his over educated a** that he/they cant even realize that one of the biggest companies in the world, colleges, make record profits on so call “BSM” and they are called text books. Please people do not waste your time coming on these blogs to bash a site people are trying to get into. You kill dreams, only show your own ignorance, and probably make more people join who are not qualified and ruin it for the hungry people. At the last meeting i attended a recently achieved platinum member spoke, went platinum in 6 months of being in the business and now is making more money than his sponsor and his sponsor, Premedical? i think not. Sorry if my rant did not make sense i hope you got the idea of it.

    1. P.S Amway is a equal opportunity business, everyone started off from the very bottom and had the exact same opportunity to move up. Those who chose to call it a scam merely couldn’t cut it in the MLM industry. 66% (two-thirds) of all IBOs drop out after the first year because its not for them. Looking at similar business opportunity, one out of four restaurants in this country will make it past their first year of business, so the food industry must be a scam as well as college since 60% of all students who graduate with a bachelors cant find a job in their field of study. I THINK I SPEAK FOR EVERYONE WHEN I SAY PLEASE LET DARWIN’S THEORY OF EVOLUTION TAKE ITS NATURAL CORSE AND PICK OFF ALL YOU NEGATIVE PEOPLE BECAUSE NEGATIVE PEOPLE = NEGATIVE SITUATIONS ALL THE TIME. THANK YOU 🙂

  3. OK, have certainly not read the huge thread, but having looked at bits and pieces of it, I can see the pro-MLM crowd has the typical responses, which was passed to them by their upline, which was passed to *them* by *their* upline, and so on. So I’m pretty confident I do not need to read the whole thing (looks it goes back a few years).

    On the flip side, *hopefully* everything I am about to say has been said by somebody else on this thread, as this knowledge should be getting spread around by now. But who knows.

    Note that nothing I am about to post here is specific to Amway. The MLM scheme is faulty and exploitative by design, so any org that has this type of format should be avoided.

    First off – the most common refrain of MLMers when it comes to critics is that we just like being “negative,” or just don’t want you to succeed for some bizarre reason, or some other such nonsense. So let me tell you right off where my motivation comes from: I CARE. I care about those who may get sucked in to this kind of thing, but my MAIN concern are for many of those already in it, i.e. *exactly* those on here that would call me negative, or a whiner, or whatever. Because the thing is, for someone who is just thinking about joining up, there is plenty of info out there that will hopefully sway them. And even of those, over 50% will see it for what it is within a year and get out.

    But for those of you that have been in it for a few years, who have told all who would listen (including friends and family) that they were just in a J.O.B. while you had an “exciting opportunity,” things are way different. You have been repeating the same things over and over for so long, that you would take a real ego hit if you were to get out. You’ve gone pretty long without making real money, so you’ve got the whole “Oh, I really haven’t been working it like I should” thing to explain to your friends/family why you have not taken off yet. But the real explanation is directed at yourself. Getting taken is embarrassing enough. Getting taken while you have been incredibly vocal and “excited” about it is even more so.

    Anyway, on to the post. The poster says that, “We don’t make money by recruiting, we make money through sales volume.”

    This is absurd. You make money (or more accurately, 1% of the people make money) through volume that goes through the people you recruit. And this volume is bought almost exclusively to those that are just trying to recruit others so they can make money off of *them*. The focus on recruiting vs. sales is baked into the bonus plan – if you make a sale and get 3% commission while your upline gets 20% commission for being the one who recruited the person that made the sale, I think it is pretty obvious where the focus is. As in all MLMs, the products are a smokescreen, both to the law and to the people getting fleeced.

    The post goes on: “Indeed, in general for any given level of sales, the more people you recruit to achieve it, the less you make on it. It’s no different to owning say a traditional retail store selling clothes.”

    OK, tell you what. Let’s say in a given month one could either sell $500 worth of product, or recruit one that can do the same. Which do you think would be better off in a year? See, the BIG difference between the MLM situation and the clothing store is, the owner of the clothing store knows there is only so much demand, and will therefore only hire enough salespeople to meet that demand. This is a KEY POINT to understand. Would you ever turn away someone that wanted to join your downline? Of course not! That is why the market is ALWAYS over-saturated when it comes to an MLM; there is no incentive to not “over recruit”; the incentive is just the opposite.

    Now, let’s say that same owner went to her sales staff and said, “We are going to make some changes. First off all, you will all be paid only on commission from now on; there shall be no base salary (or benefits, of course). In addition, I will open the doors to any and all salespeople that want to work here; the more the merrier! And just to make sure we are not stuffed to the gills with salespeople fighting over the same customer, part of your job will be to actively get more people to work here as salespeople!” You think they would be “excited” about that “opportunity”?

    And saturation happens almost *instantly* with every MLM. There are a limited number of people that are willing to be in an MLM, of course (like anything else). But your job is to find people who are willing, at which point *their* job becomes the exact same thing, and so on. And it is *because* the saturation is so quick that over %50 of the people who join quit the first year; it is not because they are “negative” or anything like that. It is because of the mathematics of the situation.

    The numbers don’t lie. You are FAR more likely to make more money flipping burgers than doing Amway or any other MLM. In fact, you are way more likely to LOSE money than to make it. Of course many of those losses come in the form of the absurd prices you will pay for product, which makes it easier to fool yourself into thinking you are not getting fleeced (“oh, these products are SO much better than that crap in the store!”).

    If you are caught up in this, be smart. Don’t repeat the mantra like the commenter above: “Some people do not have what it takes. That does not make it a scam, that makes the one who quit weak, because they couldn’t overcome the challenges to get to the next step.” It does NOT make you weak, it makes you SMART. Talk to a (non-MLM related) GOOD CPA. Ask him what he thinks of the “opportunity”. He’s the expert. Listen to him.

    1. Steve, those so many things wrong or misunderstood in your comment I don’t know where to start. Jeep an eye out for a post in the next few days on the Dunning-Kruger effect where I’ll address some of them.

  4. Look, here’s the deal. For those who don’t like the opportunity or the business, than go elsewhere. You complain more about things in others lives, rather than worrying about your own. If it’s not for you, move on. The Amway opportunity is the same for everyone. Time never goes away, therefore I can go Double Diamond, so could the random girl next door. Some people do not have what it takes. That does not make it a scam, that makes the one who quit weak, because they couldn’t overcome the challenges to get to the next step – enjoy working for the rest of your life. Not only is the business opportunity great and very possible, but the people within it are probably more inclined to assist you in life and be a much better friend, than the normal joe schmoe’s you go out to a bar and drink with every weekend. Let us build our business, as you mind your own. Honesttalk12, seriously man. There are other things in the world that suit your needs, go to them. Some people are ignorant in the way to build their business, but there’s nothing you can do about them, whether in this business or not. I wouldn’t care if I had people who thought about the business negatively, why? because there are always people out there ready to make something out of their lives in the big picture, or just make an extra $300/month. Move on, you do you, as we will be IBO’s. We all have our own way.

  5. I’m guessing that the discussion on this article has gone on for at least 2 years since this article is that old. If not, my mistake and I apologize. So I’ll keep my statement/question simple. Show of hands: How many people who looked up info on Amway just googled “Amway”, got “Amway is a scam”, and kept it that way? Now out of the people that have done that; how many of you actually *looked* for any possible evidence *against* it, yet alone if Amway had helped anyone outside of the big dogs?
    So far I’ve got that amway has a charity -and (while this might be info that’s only been given to people interested in joining) multiple success stories. I’ve also got that while in it’s *past* the Amway biz could’ve(emphasis on could’ve since they were able to defeat the claims and for purpose for being politically correct to the extent the I really don’t care about semantics) been a scam, and while (through semantics and negligence to legal loop-holes) Amway is still technically a pyramid scheme that you can ultimate make money through this organization without having to recruiting “tons” of people into the business the only real difference is that it takes more work. Now I can’t honestly say what the importance of this information is -_-“… outside of the fact that it shows that there’s a gray area between the legit-and-scam thing. The main reason this is ultimately my concern is because it feels like every person who’s saying this whole deals a scam just sees all the lawsuits, just goes straight to the whole “fake-and-g*y” routine of the internet without seeing if there’s any “average joe” acceptions or good within the bad.
    I joined Amway about half a week ago. Did I see the scam stuff? -yes Was I concerned afterwards? -yes Why the f**k did I join?! Am I retarded?! -No, I Joined because my friend stayed for about two weeks, made over $200 in 2 days and did it without the benefit underlings, just a good coach. And if I fuck up shit what’s gonna’ happen? Nothing, cuz I got three goddamn months to get all my money back, ALL of it. and I’ll STILL have the fucking business license. And If you think that’s a lie you can ask IBOfightback. I’m pretty sure I’m not mistaken.
    It’s ultimately these same people second-guessing what I’m trying to do, getting in the way of my business with.
    “Hey bro, buy these legitimate products from me -or if you don’t want any of this s**t; register, click the link to Best Buy, and THEN buy your f**king I-phone cuz at least then you’ll be giving some of that money to me instead of directly to f**king Best Buy AND getting a f**king I-phone.”
    “Oh! that sites a scam dude *troll face*”
    Or maybe people would rather have an I-phone and have all their money go to Best Buy instead of part of it going to a friend T_T*
    And I might be ranting hear now, but think about it. There’s good amount of people who go to Best Buy to buy half of their sh*t anyway. Are you really gonna’ be an a$$hole and not help your friend out because some sh*t said a company is a scam, if you buy that f*cking iphone via his/her site your helpin’ him/her get paid either way regardless of the company’s credibility, MY friends proven that. Don’t be a b**ch and just don’t do it.

  6. Geez…this guy was doomed from the start! What a whiner! Meanwhile, I’m making $850 a month with Amway. Been in 5 months! Not bad. I can’t believe how much time people waste whining when they could channel that energy into making money. Wah wah wah…

  7. Hello!

    I’ve been aproach to become an IBO (in Canada), and I really wasn’t sure If I really wanted to join or not.
    Thoughts of pyramidal scheme popped in my mind and being told its a great way to save money (pay less for cleaning stuff and all, plus the benefits that comes from having a “company”)didn’t really helped.

    Then I began browsing…

    And here I went through all this talk… dont think Ill do it again lol!!! (took me some time to do so.)
    Now I have a better understanding (I think) of what it’s really all about. It’s not about saving money, but it’s about starting your education in having a business (gosh I hope Im not wrong).

    So do I have the intention of signing in?
    Still unsure! hahaha
    Gonna keep reading before making my move.
    At least I’m less ‘in the dark’ than I was.

    P.S.: if you want to switch ‘team’ how can you do it?
    Thanks a lot!

    1. Switching teams generally requires you to resign and wait 6 months before re-registering. Its not something that should be taken lightly and is generally discouraged, for obvious reasons.

  8. Im new here I am a new IBO a baby in the buisness. The world wide dream builders are my mentor group. I remember when I was first approached by an amway IBO, the disbelief of how the system works. However i did know of the products and thought them to be amazing. I just never had the ability to get my hands on them. In my effort to just acquire great quality products I became an IBO. It took having to attend a function for me to see how much potential the system holds. Young kids younger than myself who had started the buisness right out of high school and with the young motivation untainted by the bitterness of life actually made something out of it in a few years. Enough to say that they dont work or have to give in to someone we call boss. How they owe no one anything.

    Spending a few days with these strangers and seeing how unbelieveably happy they are and its authentic happiness. Not just with their own success but with the success of the other people who never even seen before that day. How they didn’t pitty people who hadnt quite gotten to where they are. Not to mention that they werent diamonds or emralds or whatever you all have been calling it. They just are all happy with what they have achieved even after all the BSMs.

    I am in the U.S. army, have been for 5 years now. I know what its like to be around people who are just plain miserable with life. The emotional vampiric auras of people who tread on causing as much emotional homicide as possible. People teaching you from the day you walk in this uniform that you are apart of the best organization in the world. Yet your loved ones rarely see you, how at the snap of a person finger you better roll over like a dog. How at the tap of someones toe you better come running. How people profit from the misery of every one else around them simply because they have put in the time to get to that point.

    I cant tell you the envy I felt just to see how these people lived, with smiles all becuase they have something to hope in. Faith in themselves that if the older generation can build this buisness to a daimond level then so can they. Such integrity such motivation. If every one lived like this even if you dont give a damn about amway. Just live like this.

    Stop trying to discourage these people for what they are doing. You have spent so much time to try and bring about dreadful thinking all because you think it isnt fair that diamonds are not telling they make money of bsm. Listen to yourself. So what, asumming you have children do you include them in every detail or aults livelyhood before their time. Are you telling your little infant how to properly have relationships with boys before its her time.

    I have to ask for permission just to go visit my mother and in an instant I can be denied with out explanation but you are so lucky you can spend your time doing such things.

    All my personal release aside as for the actual buisness lets put it this way. If your buisness had four walls running water and power. You need to pay for all thoses utilities to keep your buisness going. If your buisness is flourishing then you will need to buy products to such as cleaning supplies to keep it presentable.

    In any buisness you are going to spend money. You are going to extinguish your time and some one is going to profit from your efforts of trying to do something with yourself. That seems to be the law in american economy so the thought of diamonds making money from bsm isnt a dark thing.

    1. It’s quite amazing how much time people spend tearing down others. I would rather spend that time lifting people up. I want “balcony” people in my life. Not “basement” attitudes. Isn’t the world is full of that already.

      The best way to succeed in anything is to lift others up and add value to other people’s lives. By doing so, you add value to your own life.

      My wife and I are new IBOs. We want to be blessed to give rather than be blessed to have. An easier life would be great, but helping others is far greater and OUR goal out of the whole thing.

      It is tough getting out there and talking to people, sharing your own life with others. We have been stuck in a pro-sumer rut after our first sponsorship. We soon realized that we had forgotten how to have friends or socialize. That’s what happens when you go to work and come home and not much of anything else.

      All of this discussion just makes me more determined to make it work.

      My integrity is worth more than money. Our desire to help others and accomplish our modest dreams is our driving force. No BS. No lies.

  9. How to be your own boss?.
    Simple, start you own business. And it is strange because it is not so hard to do it (and not so costly).
    You can save enough money starting a business in your own home and having only one employee = you.

    You can start your own business for less than $1k x year and it include your own site and you have enough money for some marketing material.

    Anyways, for Amway is different, you are a simple employee (even less, a part-time not-internal employee), since you can’t take strategic decision about the business, for example changes in the product or you can’t decide other matter about the business.

    Amway is for servant-spirit person that want to be something in the life but earn nothing but a penny.

    But exist a solution, if you are worked in Amway but you are ambitious then, how about to start your own Amway company?. Loyalty?, c’mon we are talking about business, so it is ok to play dirt (if it is legal)

    1. magallanes, I’ve started many businesses. You’re right, it’s so hard or costly to do today. But it is hard and costly to succeed in it. You are no an employee in Amway. And with more than 450 products available you can most certainly make strategic decisions on what to focus on. Yes, there’s some downside on stuff you have to agree to, particular marketing restrictions, but then you get access to 13,000 employees, including hundreds of scientists, who are developing new products like eCoupled technology, and researching every day to improve Nutrilite and other brands. And for 50 bucks a year, you get rid of most of your logistics and most of your paperwork, and, in some countries, a 9 billion company is making and showing TV ads to help promote you!

      Try doing all that on your on.

  10. Hello All
    I can see the banter goin back and forth about the benefits / downfalls of mlm. Well being at a rather high level in a similar sized MLM, obviously not of the size of amway but. Let me start of by saying that any business that operates in a “grey” area, i.e selling opportunity more than the product in my experience there is always a great deal of truth to the rumours. It is a business, only a business, no one higher reeeally cares about those below and that is just a fact of the business world. I here alot of banter on here about the sales of promotional material and hence profiting from this.
    Of course they are, Its a product line. Its just a little easier for them to be able ,arket as it is done internally, and anyone that thinks different is very misguided. THIS IS A BUSINESS THAT IS NOT FOR EVERYONE so if you dont like it well dont do it!. And I feel qualified as I walked away from a extremely profitable business on similar lines after in my personal opinion “selling to much of my soul” But I knew what I was in for. For the ones that think you can put in a few hours per week and slowly grow something = wrong. nothing good in life is easy or quick, anything especially in this method of marketing requires alot and I mean ALOT of time investment to have any shape of true success.

  11. it always amazes me when ppl say this is a scam or this is a pyramid sceme and when you ask them for an alternative, they can’t give you any!
    You want to get a job and stay with the compagny and be part of the 85-90% of the population that die broke. People wake up, you’re part of a system that is sucking the life out of you in every aspect of your life. Most of the ppl that were bashing Amway and so on have nothing that even compares to what Amway has done over the years. People are so quick to criticize and discourage because it’s so easy to do! Stop complaining, stop making excuses for your own failures or misinterpretations and accept them for what they are: failures, excuses, and misinterpretations.

    People who say that why aren’t everyone Platinum, Emerald, Diamond, etc… Look at any field, as you go further up in the corporate business; the further you move up the less people you find because not everyone is willing to work hard, to go through the failures which is why they stay in the level of fear or some call it security and the corporate world feeds from that. Why are some atheletes better than others because they are willing to have a no matter what mentality. Why do some people succeed in Amway and others do not or quit? that’s because they were not able to change their mentality!!!
    From your early years you were programmed a certain way and from there you you saw the world a certain way from which you felt a certain way as well. An author once said ” to change you feel you have to change the way you think” which is the most critical thing to do in the initial stages of the business. The difference between most of the wealthy people and the masses is the mindset. Your mindset helps you create something that wasn’t there which is where the tools comes in.
    What is a mechanic without his tools, what is a chef without his culinary equipement, what is a race car driver without his car, what is a soldier witout his weapons, and i could go on and on. What is a business owner without a system to run your business. Without a system your business will never be predictable. The system gives you the attitude and most importantly the character of a business owner. I would feel really unconfortable if you had a bunch of people making money without any morals, values, etc… which is why this business is the BEST AND YES I SAID THE BEST business opportunity ever because it combines the best business opportunity, the system of a million dollar franchise and the value system of people with integrity, honesty, loyalty and kindness.
    So to the people out there who complain and attempt to give Amway a bad name. UNderstand that you are in a long list who have attemped to do so for the last half a century, HALF A CENTURY, you will waste your energy and time for a lost cause for which you will never be remembered! So stop while you’re add it and do something more productive with your time and we wish you the very best in all that you do.

  12. I forgot I wanted to talk about the system and motivation in general. If i never would of joined amway I never would got to where I am in life. I understand certain people think the cd’s and function are meant to brain wash you into thinking a certain way. Well that brain washing isn’t what you think. I went from being a negative, uneducated and short term thinker to a postive, successful, long-term thinker because of those cd’s and functions. And i am not talking about in terms of building the amway business but in terms of my life’s direction. Because of those tapes and cd’s, they lead me to people like Tony Robbins and Jim Rohn. After I learned about motivational tapes and cds, I bought multiple cd systems from Tony Robbins and they helped me grow in ways I can’t even explain. I was more focused on my thinking, my health, creating financial freedom, my emotions and my relationships. Over the past 5 years I have bought hundreds of amway tapes and cd’s from the 1970’s to the current day. There’s a site called Your Quixtar/Amway Global Tool Depot. You can get any groups tapes and cds. While I haven’t been in the business for over 5 years, I listen to them daily because there are so many golden nuggets and ideas that aren’t just helpful in building an amway business but there helpful in building any business and especially on improving yourself as a person.

    For people who say that the amway tapes are expenses at a whopping $4 atleast through UR Assocation. I have bought Tony Robbins tape systems which include anywhere from 7 cds to 30 cds and each cost around $149-$299 so don’t tell me that a $4 dollar cd to grow your amway business is expensive. It’s an investment into yourself and into your business that will pay rewards greatly more then that little cost for the cd. Plus the knowledge on those cd’s can change your life as they have mine. The speakers and emeralds and diamonds who make those cd’s in my opinion deserve the % of money they get because they did the work to get to the high levels of the business and they did it through hard work. I will admit not all diamonds are created equal. There are bad eggs and good eggs in Amway. John Crowe, Dave Dussualt, Rex Renfrow are the good ones. As well as Brad Duncan, Dave Severn and some others. But I am not here to make a debate on a certain leader although I will if need be.

    My point is whether or not your in the business, I urge you to listen and buy some motivational cds. There really not motivation while some are, I consider them cd’s that help grow you as a person and in return help grow whatever business your trying to build.

  13. I would like to put my thoughts in. Now I read alot of the comments and I know it’s a year later but I still have valuable info and experience with Amway.

    I was a member of BWW then UR Association once it was created from 2003-2005. I still to this day go to meetings and seminars that are in my area to associate and see how my friends are doing in the business. One of my good friends who went to school with me has reached the ruby level and is well on his way to emerald. They currently have 100,000 in the bank, are debt free and make over 100,000 between him and his wife with their amway income and his job. One of my favorite teachers and football coaches is currently a 4 legged founders Emerald and is 12-15 months away from Diamond. His income is around $300,000 last time I checked.My other friend went Platium in 5 months, and qualified Emerald in 2 years. He did leave the business to be the CEO of his families successful business but speaks well of Amway to this day. He actually just did Amway to prove it works lol. Anyway my story is simple. I joined, loved the business from day 1. I saw the value in the system and especially once John Crowe and Dave Dussualt created Ur Association, the way they did business. Amway is like the NFL, there are good teams and teams who do business the wrong way. But for me I was only 20 at the time and wasn’t ready to change my life to where I needed to be successful so I left the business for the time being. But what I learned helped me become the successful person I am today. Because of the business and more importantly the system, I have been able to create an online business of my own which has helped me work from home, create a great lifestyle and have enough money that when I have a family they will want for nothing. I do plan to rejoin amway and URA one day in the near future. Once I build my online business to a certain point where I can just manage it on the sidelines. I have always felt the amway business is my destiny. I love the association, the people I have grown to know and want to create my family legacy through URA. So once I do return to the business I will let you know how I am doing. But that time hasn’t come yet.

    A few words on Ur Association. It is one of the best if not the best groups out there. The way they do business is top notch. From my experience, I can tell you they focus on 3 legs at a time but teach to continue to personally sponsor 12-15 and then put them down through your first 3 legs. So you create width in profitabilty but also depth. Drive those 3 legs till you reach Emerald. Then do it again with 3 more legs till your Diamond. They also teach customer volume very well. When a new IBO is sponsored within the first two weeks they hold something called a grand opening which is developed to help that IBO created 150-300 pv of customer volume so right away they create profit so that the money they spend on building their business doesn’t come from their pocket but from they amway income. lastly they teach long term thinking and I never met anyone in URA that wasn’t anything but professional, nice, and a good person. People who look down on Amway, or had a bad experience have to understand that the good thing about amway is anyone can join, the bad thing is anyway can join. So if you have a bad experience, you can decide to quit or you can switch teams. I am not currently an IBO, so before someone says, you speak well of Amway, and UR Association because your in the business, well I am not, but I have alot of knowledge and experience.

    As far as the tool system. I will admit that some groups have it that only the Emeralds and Diamonds make all the money but for UR Association it’s built much different. It’s created so that all the money goes into one big pot. Platiums get the highest percentage, then Emeralds, then Diamonds. It’s really very well built. Like Rich Devos said, Platium Directs are the cemement that hold Amway together and a Diamond together so they should be treated well and paid well. The way URA does their system Platiums make very good money and you don’t hear of broke Gold’s,Silver’s and Platiums unlike with other groups.

    I want to say that life is different for everyone. Everyone has different dreams, passions and talents. For people who have never been in Amway and especially URA, you have no right to stay negative things just because you read or heard something from someone that might of been in the business and quit. WHen you hear of people who have been in for multiple years and never reached even 1000 pv. You have to ask them did they work it. See at a job if someone says they have been with SO and SO Company for 10 years. You know for 10 years they have worked there 5 days a week, 40 hours a week for 52 weeks each year. But if someone says ive been in amway for 10 years, you dont know if they worked the business a few times a month off and on and only talked to a few people or if they worked the business 5 nights a week and did the 9 core steps, etc. Also no business is perfect, but with Amway you are given an opportunity to build an income as large as you want. It puts you in the drivers seat. With most jobs you have a ceiling. With MLM’s, the good ones, you have the opportunity to create a long-term income that can grow and grow. For people who say there dreams are to be a dancer, or a teacher and don’t want to build a business, I say to you this. Amway can give you the chance to do whatever your dream is. Work the business hard and smart till you reach Founder’s Diamond and secure your business then you will have all the money you need and you can then live out your dreams and not worry about money, you can go to whatever your dream job is and do it because you love it, not because you need the money.

    I will answer any question anyone has. I would love to trade conversation with current or past IBO’s. I always look at Amway as a opportunity for people who want to create a life for them and their families that puts them in control. So that they can be together and enjoy all that life has to offer. Ask yourself this. Would you spend the next 5 even 10 years working your butt off to create a secure business income that then you can spend the rest of your life living your dreams, being with your family and enjoying life or would you rather spend it working 40 hours a week at a job that statistics say you probably don’t like, and probably won’t allow you to live your life the way you want. Amway might not be for you but with the internet you are able to create a business of your own with your passions as the main focus and work for yourself. That’s what I do. I look forward to hearing responses.

  14. P.S: Why dont people in Amway scream it from the rooftops? Why are you programmed by numerous CDs and your upline to be able to ‘do the invitation properly’. Why cant i just go and tell everyone that i am in amway, put in on facebook, advertise it. Why should i feel i need to suck them in with a 45 minute plan first then reveal, P.S we use awmay to do this, here’s a sign up form…

  15. I am a recent ‘quitter’ of Amway ( IBO ). I will share my opinions here:

    – my ‘upline’ is obsessed with the business. He no longer listens to radio, watches tv or will pick up a newspaper as he wants to avoid the ‘real world’ as it is full of negativity and stupid people (his wording, not mine).
    – I struggled to spend the $400 a month just to hit my own PV target. I was hardly ever encouraged to buy the retail products from him except there was a few times were i was almost reprimanded by my up line because i had a can of red bull and i should have bought XS… ( i dont really like XS and he knew this)
    – I was borderline stalked when i mentioned i did not want to come to the weekly meeting, monthly business meeting and i near punched the guy when i told him yesterday that i didnt want to go to the Regional conference and his response was “so obviously you have listened to one too many people who have no money and have swayed your thinking”. He is extremely insulting and rude when i tell him i dont want to go to an event that will cost me money to be brainwashed. It is NLP at its best. Especially if you listen to the CD’s EVERY DAY, you must listen to one EVERY DAY, dont listen to the radio in the mornings, listen to a CD!! (at $58 a month with a book)
    – i stopped answering his calls and returning his texts because he is beyond pushy and so are his uplines.
    – I told him my husband did not support me as he has had a previous bad experience with Amway and he pushed and pushed to the point where my husband asked him to leave our home

    I found that he is almost non human with his emotions now. He simply cannot have a conversation about anything other than Amway. He literally turns his head and stops listening if i want to discuss something else.

    He has lied about a few things , well, he has avoided answering and is very good at changing the subject and my final straw was getting the agenda for the regional conference and seeing there is a few hours blocked out for a Christian prayer time. I specifically asked if Amway had ANYTHING to do with religion before i signed up and i was assured it didnt.

    It is very difficult for me to avoid him now as we work together. Another reason why i quit is because he was showing the ‘plan’ to our clients and mentioning i was in the team and i was super excited to be in amway etc etc when i asked him numerous times to keep it seperate from work as there is a little thing called ‘conflict of interest’ and if my work knew he was signing people up to my ‘business’ i would be fired on the spot.

    I am all for making money while i sleep and i understand the recurring income but these people, especially the new IBO’s are borderline brainwashed.
    If the more experienced IBO’s actually sat back and looked at how many real friends (not other IBO’s) they had left that they hadnt alienated, they probably wouldnt have many.

    I am scarred, i spent alot of money and i almost knocked my upline out when he almost wouldnt let me get out of his car because i cancelled going to the conference…

    Programmed little robots…

    1. It sounds like your upline was a jerk. That doesn’t mean all 3.5million IBOs are. I would note though that it is explicitly contrary to Amway’s rules to promote religion at Amway-related seminars. I suspect the “regional conference” you were considering was an independently operated one, at that the “christian prayer time” was actually an optional non-denominational one put on as a convenience for those who would normally miss their church/synagogue/mosque whatever service due to travel distances for the conference. One of the groups I associated with used to do them. I never went, and neither I noticed did some Diamonds and above. As an atheist I wasn’t particularly offended by them organising it for those who wanted it.

  16. just think, how much time any scam get survied? If it is a scam then it won’t survive for last 52 years. It’s a legal business.

  17. These are the real facts about Amway and BSM.
    BSM cost: $5 a week for Open meetings.
    $68 a moth(includes 8 cd’s and 1 book)
    $25 Seminar ticket.
    Total: $113

    Amway Products and Services

    Gran Total of $343-$463 monthly.

    But remember your already spending money buying products at your local store, so it’s not like you have to spend an extra $230-$350 every month outside your budget because all your doing is buying them at a different location.

    As an Amway IBO an 18% (IF YOUR STRUCTURE IS DEVELOPED RIGHT) can make anywhere from $450-$600 a month.

    Its funny how Amway is going on 53 years, is #2 in making the most millionairs (google is #1), and has great products, yet people still think it’s a scam.

    So those are actual facts based on 2010 fiscal year.

    1. Um…this is an example of ONE way to build the Amway business. I was clearing (profiting, after all expenses) $450-$600 way before the 18% level. It appears that you are being taught pure “self-consumption” meaning no retail customers. That kind of model is why profitablity is so low–in the entire line of sponsorship. And the retention rate is much lower building this way, since most folks don’t want to wait until the 18% level before making a few hundred bucks.
      In addition, BSM consumption can vary dramatically based on one’s Line of Affilation *and* individual IBO.
      Lastly the number of millionaires stat is B.S. Whoever you heard that from, ask the person to cite their source. If they can’t, then stop repeating it.
      And Amway started in May 1959–52 years ago this month.

  18. ang mahirap sa amway ay pagbebenta ng mga bagay na meron na sa tindahan kagaya ng toothpaste shampoo sabon at iba pa. . . bakit ka magsasayang ng oras na umorder at hintayin ang bagay na pede mo naman bilhin sa tindahan lalo na ang presyo ng amway ay di basta basta. . .

    halimbawa magsisipilyo ka, oorder kapaba ng toothpaste sa amway? bakit di kana lang bumili sa malapit na tindahan makakabili kapa ng tingi tingi. . .

  19. IBOFIGHTBACK: Did you bother reading the article on which you’re commenting? I can’t speak for what you’ve experience but … “nothing is even mentioned about the products”??? Huh? The business plan I saw included several pages on the companies major brands. When registering the company sent me several thick manuals with information and training on the products.

    ANDY: You might be falling in one of two categories: (A) with your head stuck in the sand or (B) a hired hand who writes meaningless mumbo-jumbo on this website. By the way, what articles are you taking about and what do you mean by, “nothing is even mentioned about the products”??? Huh??,… Why do you want me to mention about products and brands? Every business in the world has products and brands that they try to move. What’s your point? My dear friend, you need to shake all the Articles and “thick manuals with information and training on the products” out of your head so you can think clearly. Apparently, you have several volumes of material stuck in there. Shake them out. They’ll clog your thinking like old cobwebs. Then put on your thinking cap and think. Don’t allow yourself to become a mindless drone. Do your best to try and write stuff that makes sense.
    IBOFIGHTBACK: The group I am with teaches how the products work and how to demonstrate them, and promotes the necessity of how to sell them. Not to mention the multitude of product information supplied online.

    ANDY: Did I ever try to dispute or question the fact that your “group I am with teaches how the products work and how to demonstrate them, and promotes the necessity of how to sell them”? What’s your point?

    IBOFIGHTBACK: If you’d actually taken some time to review all of this you would have discovered the products are very competitive in their price categories, and “in this economy” there was double digit growth last year.

    ANDY: Yes, the products may be very price competitive in your warped mind. It’s possible you’ve been thoroughly brain-washed into that belief, but I’ll grant that to you. You are what you believe. However, in the real world they are absolutely not price competitive. The only reason Amway/Quixtar manages to move these high-priced products is because they are sold to a captive audience, namely the IBOs, by and large, who have no other choice than to buy the products if they want to stay in the business, and supposedly try to make it work, until they realize it’s really a Win-Lose Proposition.

    IBOFIGHTBACK: Your comments seem to be little more than rehashing of long discredited myths spread on the internet, and you’ve done little in the way of true personal research. Who exactly is just “following like a puppy”?

    ANDY: Au Contraire, it seems to be your comments throughout this website that are being rehashed in a dozen different ways and you seem quite content with living your myths as if they were reality. You have two options: (A) you can continue to live in your warped Amway Fantasy world, or, (B) do your best to pull your head out of the sand. Let me point out that there’s great advantage with the second option. You’ll get to breathe some fresh air. Can you stop chasing your warped imagination by “following like a puppy”? It’ll do you a lot of good.

    1. Andy’s reply is in reply to a comment of mine in reply to an earlier comment that appears to have been deleted. It would seem Andy was the source of the original comment. Without that original comment it’s difficult to reply but I’ll do my best. Well, no, I can’t really reply. Andy’s comment is not much more than a mindless rant full of the usual oft-discredited critic crap.

  20. The Amway/Quixtar scam and deception seemingly goes all the way to the very top. I was part of the system for a long time and I was unwittingly involved in scamming others for a long time until I finally realized that I was doing so. At which point I decided not to continue with this system.

    It all begins with high-priced, questionable quality products (with the exception of a few such as DoubleX Vitamins). The price points for these products are absolutely not in keeping with equivalent quality products in the rest of the market place. Additionally, to conceal and manipulate the actual commissions of the IBOs, the commission structures are not based directly on a percentage of the business volume that the IBO has generated, but instead on a point system that can be manipulated by Amway/Quixtar to their advantage. If the equivalent was true in the rest of the business world, a Toyota car salesman, for example, would be getting paid 40% commission on one car and 2% commission on another car he sold. In short, he’d be getting ripped off on some of his sales efforts.

    That’s not all. In Amway/Quixtar, when your downline becomes a Direct, you lose all their downlines along with their associated commissions. This fact is twisted and hidden in the esoteric language of the Business Agreements and Presentations that are made. Would you work hard to build a large organization and continue working to do so if you knew that you would lose a portion of your organization at some point in the future? Would you continue to work if you had no control over how much you would stand to lose whenever someone went Direct in your organization through no fault of your own? If you continued working you’d be like a hamster running in a spinning wheel going nowhere at 90 miles per hour. Amway leaders mention that regular working folk are part of a rut system. They’re spinning their wheels. Well, true to a point, but when you get into the Amway/Quixtar biz you’re getting into a bigger, and much more expensive rut system. Now you’re never going to stop spinning your wheels until you go completely broke, or gain some wisdom, whichever comes first. Every time someone under you becomes a Direct (if you ever manage with great effort to take someone to that point) you’ll lose them, and Amway will say Thank You, by throwing a few pennies in your jar. Now, you can get back on your wheel and continue spinning, until you lose another Direct, and continue in this fashion on the endless road to nowhere.

    Which brings me to the last point. Why do you think Amway/Quixtar leaders focus so much of their efforts on business tools? It’s because they want to pull themselves out of the Amway/Quixtar rut system that you’ve just gotten yourself into. These leaders are making some Real Money in a Real Cool and Crafty Way. The CDs contain talks from different Amway/Quixtar leaders, which in essence are generic business principles, that are repeated, rehashed and regurgitated in so many different ways by these leaders. Listening to these vague and general business principles gets to be quite exhausting and taxing after some time. Very few of the CDs contain specific techniques and ‘How-To’ Business Building Information. There is nothing here that you cannot get in any public library for free. The Amway/Quixtar tools business is a really lucrative proposition for all Amway/Quixtar leaders (Diamond and above, for the most part) who stand to profit from all the tapes, books, CDs, newsletters and promotional materials that are sold to unsuspecting, but captive buyers, namely the IBOs. They’ll tell you that you absolutely need to have tools such as Tapes/Books/CDs in order to successfully build the Amway/Quixtar business. In Theory, according to the Business Rules, you can supposedly return these materials to your upline without any hassles, if you don’t want them, with a 90 Day Money Back Guarantee. However, in practice, you’ll also be completely frowned upon, shunned, ostracized, ignored and cast aside if you ever dare to stop buying these materials or attempt to return them because you’re not satisfied. You’ll be told that you can never build a business without the right business tools. You will also stop receiving any further ‘mentorship’ from your business leader, until you get down on you knees and beg for mercy, because you’ve committed a ‘Cardinal Sin’ by breaking a ‘Cardinal Rule’ while trying to avoid ordering the business tools. If other businesses in the world would’ve operated on similar guidelines, the whole world would’ve been overflowing with such “Business Tools”. Thankfully, that is not the case.

    Lastly, it is quite impossible to objectively evaluate the Amway/Quixtar business until you pull you head out of the sand and breathe some fresh air. When I was an IBO, I had my head stuck in the sand as well and I was vehemently defending all the abuse that was being heaped and piled on me by my well-meaning Business “Mentors”. I only realized what was happening after my finances started taking a big hit. Hope you reach a similar point of awakening. Network Marketing is still a good, viable and very promising industry. But, you’ll have to pull your head out of the sand first, and go breathe some fresh air before you can take advantage of it and find the right business organizations that can work for you. Wish you all the best on your success journey.

    1. 1. There is no “the system”. I’ve learned that any comment that begins with that kind of claim is about to go on and prove it’s author is clueless about Amway
      2. Amway’s products have won awards around the world. They are generally price competitive with similar products in their categories. Artistry, which makes up a significant chunk of Amway’s business, is generally significantly cheaper than competitors. Critics who claim otherwise generally lie or deliberately mislead. Disagree? Come up with some data instead of rants
      3. You claim “en your downline becomes a Direct, you lose all their downlines along with their associated commissions”. This is completely false. You never “lose” your downline, and under normal circumstances when a personally sponsored leg qualifies direct your commission actually *increases* from 3% to 4%. Not that they’ve been called “direct” in the US for more than a decade, which pretty much goes to show how old your (limited) experience is.
      4. Most of the CDs I listen to have “specific techniques” and “how to” business building information, and certainly not available in most public libraries. Maybe the ones you listened to didn’t. I don’t pretend to speak for them as you do for others.
      5. I’ve returned materials, even used seminar tickets, for full refunds. Your mileage may vary. Though you’re apparently ignorant of it, there are dozens of different BSM suppliers in the US alone. Maybe yours sucked.
      6. Haven’t been to a meeting (or even listened to a CD/Mp3) in a long time. Hasn’t changed my opinion of the business at all. But then, maybe my experience was different to yours. Did you even bother reading the article?

    1. Rules (or, in some cases, lack of) on this vary from country to country and from group to group. Usually it depends on their condition. Best to talk to whoever you’re buying them off. If you’ve real concerns or finances are a challenge to begin with, then you might want to negotiate borrowing materials while you’re getting started. Obviously when you start wanting to lend materials to other people you’ll need your own though!

  21. Another quick comment; Why the huge push to purchase BSM’s and attend meetings? (besides profit for the upline)

    1. Ask McDonalds why their franchisees have to go to hamburger university, and work in a McDonald’s (for free) for up to a year(?) before they can purchase. Ask Subway way their franchisees are required to work in a Subway for at least 3 months. Are you telling me your franchisor had no requirements at all for you to undergo any training and education when you bought a franchise? That is unusual.

    2. First, to clarify: All those participating in a BSM company (as a consumer or as both a consumer and a profitor) are Amway business owners. But not all Amway business owners participate in a BSM company. So not all Amway business owners “push” BSM purchases.
      Second, for those who do recommend BSMs, they feel there is value in what they are offering. People come to the Amway business at all different levels of skills and talents needed to build a successful business. The skills a person can learn via the BSMs are sometimes very specific to the Amway business, and many times are transferable to other businesses and to life in general.
      As examples, just some of the things I have learned from some BSMs I’ve purchased are:
      * aligning my goals with my values
      * creating a work habit to attain my goals
      * time management
      * identifying the strengths and the weaknesses of my personality temperment
      * educating myself on all personality temperments, and learning how to effectively communicate with all types
      * how to work with my spouse–both in our business and in our life
      Can I purchase items from other sources to help me the way these BSMs have? Yes. And my experience is that the price is significantly greater outside the particular BSM company from which I purchase.

      1. I think the issue that many folks have regarding the BSMs is when they are continuing to buy them when they really don’t need to. If you already have 10 books on leadership, 10 books on time management, 10 CDs on relationship-building, and yet your Amway business is the same place it was a year ago, perhaps you don’t need another BSM, and instead need to apply what those BSMs are teaching.
        And a good sponsor will recognize this, and not “push” any more BSMs on those whom they sponsor.
        On the flip side, I have had people in my organization who would much rather continually buy a $125 ticket and attend weekend conferences, than to do something that would cost them zero dollars, and a lot less time, and would be far more effective in building their Amway business. BUT, such a thing would require that they get out of their comfort zone and be a little fearful.

  22. Wow, very interesting reading! I too have been approached by the Amway crowd. Most defintely NOT for me. If it was as simple as IBO, Bridgette, et al, make it out to be then there would be 1000’s of millionaires running around every city in the country. But alas, it’s not all “hard work” that makes you successful. It takes a ton of luck and failure as well.

    I think my biggest problem is the lack of total and complete disclosure about how one makes his/her money in the Amway world. If I can make .01 off each piece of product I/my downline sells, that’s what I need to know. If I make all my profits off tapes, CD’s, meetings… then tell me so, and tell me how I get to that point.

    If you are my upline manager (apologies for not knowing terms) then I should know exactly how you make money off me.

    I bought a franchise a few years ago. When I purchased it I knew what my franchise fee was for and what my monthly fees were for, and how they would affect my business.

    I purchased another business two months ago and I had access to EVERY bit of info I asked for. Going in to business on faith will put you in the poor house.

    Quick question for Bridgette; how is it illegal to “entice” someone by showing them all angles of a business? Is this “law” a Federal law or Amway law?

    1. ECM, whoever said its just “hard work” and luck or failure involved? Personally I don’t believe much in luck, but much like any other business success in Amway is about hard work, persistence, a willingness to learn, and yes, getting through a lot of failure. That’s normal. What’s also normal is that most people aren’t willing to go through all of that, so why on earth you think there should be “thousands of millionaires” etc is beyond me. I suppose diet and exercise doesn’t work either, because if it did, then nobody would be overweight?

      There IS full disclosure of how one makes money “in the Amway world”. All of the bonuses and levels etc are explained in the Business Reference Guide, which is publicly available. What you seem to have not understood is that profits of CDs etc are from entirely different companies, they’re not “in the Amway world” per se. It’s federal law that you cannot entice someone to sign a contract (eg an Amway contract) by offering some deal with another company. I happen to be in the process of becoming part owner of a franchisor (not franchise) and I cannot encourage someone to buy one of our franchises by offering some deal with one of my other companies. That’s an illegal enticement.

      That said, my upline has always been open with me about BSM profits. No question has ever gone unanswered, so your claim about “the lack of total and complete disclosure” is simply not true in my case, and I’m sure in other peoples as well. If you encountered differently, then blame those people, not Amway, as it pretty much has nothing to do with them.

    2. Hi ECM,
      Just to clarify: Simple does not equate to effortless.
      Hence why not everyone is successful with the Amway business, as in life.
      Regarding your question about enticement: To clarify, the BSMs (business support materials)is not “an angle” of a business. It is a completely separate business from the Amway business. This means that you can’t, legally, offer one business opportunity as a requirement for being able to participate in another business opportunity.

  23. If I was to do Amway again, there is no way I would entice my downline to purchase so much carpe on “tools”, it would be money better spent on soaps and products.
    It is true what I have read, the sales and promotions on “tool” is the scam. You can whatever you like, your words and responses are like a old worn out record, just a new version of words.
    You people in Amway broke our spirit, our family and our life after 4 years of “beieve in the dream”….your dream, was to take our money, more money was spent on “tools”, S&R’s than was spent on actual amway products.

    if you are so sure this works, then give it away, give the methods away, copy all the BS and give it away.
    Your so called “God” and “Happy Clappies do say, “Freely given, Freely give” ?
    S&R’s ought to be gold coin donation and the shortfall made up by pure PV/BV, if you say it works.

  24. im not registered yet with LTD yet. between listening to them and reading this, i know everyone is entitled to their opinion. As an upcoming business owner for my photography, entrepreurs have to invest in their business with their money and loans. i know LTD is legimate.i actually like the fact that i have never been pressured and all i have gotten was honesty. i don’t think its the business, its the people in it. you will run across good ones and bad ones. i am not going to blame amway nor LTD for any stupid moves of someone misrepresenting the company. if anyone feels strongly and feeling they are being mislead or uncomfortable it is best to speak up. Amway is not a scam as honest talk said . i understand a point he is getting to. you can get scammed. there are people making ibos look bad. they not even part of the company and they use amway to get money out of people.then you have the unethical people who work for them but misrepresents the company. its not for everyone. not everyone is cut out for this.for those who are successfully, you got the drive to handle your business. every company has its scotomas. when a company gets rid of slackers and deceptors it will grow more. i have also heard the word cult,satanists,and other words that people described amway but none of this has LTD on it.both are legimate companies but amway has a history of misrepresent by the people they trust to run or work for the company. amway will eventually build their reputation back up or in other words, do damage control. EVERYONE is entitled to their OPINION.No matter what, business is business. don’t blame everyone or a whole company for misrepresentation. also i am in college for business and one thing i learned is a business will never tell you too much financial information because of privacy laws.majority of companies have privacy babies r us, employees are not allow to speak on their pay. so really everyone on here agree to disagree right now. it’s not worth arguing over. some of you were not successful and when u were in the business you were more skeptical and cautious. the rest were driven and took risk. if they are succeeding then they are. if they are not they are not. it is what it is. just know no one is perfect even dealing with companies.

    1. an addition to what i said, i have never dealt with cults nor satanists events with the company.there are more christians in amway and ltd

  25. Did you bother reading the article on which you’re commenting? I can’t speak for what you’ve experience but … “nothing is even mentioned about the products”??? Huh? The business plan I saw included several pages on the companies major brands. When registering the company sent me several thick manuals with information and training on the products. The group I am with teaches how the products work and how to demonstrate them, and promotes the necessity of how to sell them. Not to mention the multitude of product information supplied online.

    If you’d actually taken some time to review all of this you would have discovered the products are very competitive in their price categories, and “in this economy” there was double digit growth last year.

    Your comments seem to be little more than rehashing of long discredited myths spread on the internet, and you’ve done little in the way of true personal research. Who exactly is just “following like a puppy”?

  26. I can’t believe I just spent 2 hours of my life reading all of this first of all.

    I just got back from a “meeting” I guess you guys call it and was 100% in, but now I’m not so sure after reading all of that. I’m more of a 90% out now. In my opinion I live an “ok” life with an “ok” income. More income would be better but I don’t think this transition over to Amway is for me right now.

    1. By having attended a meeting and met real people you’ve got more experience than the vast majority of “negative” folk who have commented here. Keep researching – which can include giving it a go, there’s no risk – and make the best decision for you

      1. Not true, people that didn’t experience a reasonable level of exposure to this wouldn’t care enough to even post anything “positive” or “negative”. It’s a pretty select group because in the larger picture Amway and the BSM groups are not on the list of real companies impacting history.

        An outside observer with little exposure isn’t going to care because zero of the world’s most impactful people are actual reps in MLM.

        But, you can believe that these MLMers are the greatest and most knowledgeable leaders in the world … just keep pumping your money into their tools and they will be your best friend.

  27. I am not anonymous nor am I fake or a critic or a criticbot or a pessimist or a loner or a pess…wait I already said that. This ignorant banter took away hours of my life. Let us agree to disagree. Those of whom want to be successful will be and those whom refuse to believe that you can not be successful will never be. My strongest advice is that you should follow the way you believe and let others follow suit. The others that want to argue or want some type of proof that obviously can not be offered should keep their close minded comments to themselves and get off the computer and get to work. Allen out!

    1. That’s always the assumption, that people who don’t agree with the BSM’s leaders brainwashing will not be successful.

      Well, let me ask it this way … how many IBOs are among the richest in the world? … no, not DeVoss and VanAndle (they actually ARE business owners, everyone else is just a home product sales rep) but real IBOs … Diamonds, Crowns, etc?

      How many of the wealthiest people in the world did it by building an Amway downline? None that I know of.

      So, to continue the foolish assumption that it’s only possible to be successful if you agree that Amway and Amway BSM groups is goofy. Only a goofball would believe this junk taught by Amway leaders, it’s everywhere in their functions, and beyond silly.

      Let me be clear, I wouldn’t trade my career, education, or future potential with you or fbibo or anyone else on here that believes Amway is the only way to be successful and without Amway will end up a complete failure in life.

      They spoon feed that foolishness to IBOs all the time and that’s why people continue to say it all the time … it’s your own choice to follow these salesmen.

      1. Um… I don’t think Jason is claiming that a person won’t be successful in life if they don’t build the Amway business. When he says,
        “Those of whom want to be successful will be and those whom refuse to believe that you can not be successful will never be.”
        he’s talking about success within the Amway business, not in life.

        1. “those whom refuse to believe that you can not be successful will never be.”

          The “never” appeared to include much more than Amway because people that don’t believe in MLM and Amway simply don’t spend their free hours doing it …

          Bottom line is someone probably has a much better chance of becoming financially successful by using what would be their Amway MLM time and rather study what the world’s wealthiest people do … and I don’t think any Amway reps are on that list.

  28. I am an IBO. Have been for years. I have found that besides the tangable financial rewards possible with Amway there are the things money can’t buy.

    1. I have met so many interesting people. Lots of them are now personal friends.
    2. I have improved who I am as a person by attending events, reading suggested books and listening to audios. Good stuff in, goog stuff out.
    3. I have owned several traditional businesses that have cost my plenty of time, money and tears.
    4. I know tht if I never become Diamond I am still ahead of the game because of the 1,2 and 3.

    I have never been told just because I signed the dotted line money would show up with out me putting any effort. Luck is spelt WORK!

    As for BSM income, have you ever stopped to think anyone making money from BSM worked to get there. If you do the work you get paid. Period!!!

      1. I know for WWDB and BWW they actually built the large BSM structure after the large leaders had built their businesses (Puryear and Britt). That same BSM overhead was not in place when they built their businesses in the 1970s.

        So in fact, if you want to duplicate your upline maybe try focusing on moving products and getting clients like Britt and Puryear did when they were first starting. Product movement is all you get paid on … not BSM movement, where only they get paid. Yet an upline support group might try to focus all your attention on their little cash cows where only the make the money.

        You invite 100 people to your upline support group’s next function and see how much profit they share with you. Zero, yet they made a ton all bought new cars … all the while your 100 people could’ve been using that money to buy products where you do get paid.

        1. (1) Folk like Puryear and Britt had BSM expenses, they were still purchasing books and tapes and seminar tickets, but from other sources. If you know the history of Amway you’d know DeVos and Van Andel got involved in Nutrilite after travelling cross-country to a major seminar. What folk like Britt & Puryear realised was that they could make their own materials more specific to the Amway business – and make a business out of that too. Britt for example made money selling BSM to Puryears group, who were not in his downline.

          (2) If you’ve got a 100 people at a seminar, then you are almost certainly silver/gold or higher, which means you ARE almost certainly profit sharing on ticket sales.

          Tell me honesttalk12, could you explain Accreditation+ to me? You clearly know everything about Amway BSM systems in 2011, so perhaps you could share?

          1. BSMs in WWDB

            vmail $35
            membership $50
            Cds-MP3 $20
            meetings $30 (3 sessions at $10)
            info systems $25

            Annually (couple):
            DreamNight $120
            Leadership $250
            Reunion $500
            FED $250

            …many other various charges

            Total= $3,060

            Lets say you don’t invite the 100, but just 25? It’s still $76,500 in BSM revenue to the BSM org.

            Most important question (as you responded to me with your high level of BSM knowledge) … Do you have the struture as to when you do or don’t qualify for BSM profit sharing?

            Why is it a secret, why aren’t IBOs told it exists if it’s a “fair” BSM profit sharing system?

            It could be as simple as the PV/BV scale people are shown from day one, why do you think it’s fair to hide the BSM profit sharing system with new IBOs?

          2. According to the last WWDB parameters I saw (some years old now), and confirmed with similar N21 vital signs, having 25 couples at major seminars and on the kind of BSM program you outline would equate to a strong platinum business, ie bringing in, including retail markups, well over $400,000/yr in to the “Amway org”. I believe BSM profit sharing kicks in at different levels in different groups. In the system I work with it’s based on BSM volumes, not pin level, but those volumes are based on what a gold or platinum would normally be ordering.

            Details of the BSM compensation plan itself is not usually shared with new IBOs because doing so would be illegal, as has already been pointed out to you.

          3. So it’s illegal to share a very important part of where their upline’s income really comes from? Then all I’m suggesting is that new IBOs know about this prior to deciding to dump a bunch of their own money into the “illegal to share with them” part of their upline’s income.

            This structure not for me, it’s not above board and it’s not someone’s own business when in fact there’s a shadow income that can’t be shared with the newest person.

            **btw, too bad the hypothetical $76,500 spent on BSMs for 25 people in WWDB wasn’t just rather spent on PV/BV products in Amway… at least the true inviter would’ve received some profit credit… as it stands now only WWDB BSM org gets all the profit.

          4. (1) It is illegal to promote one opportunity in order to encourage people to sign a contract for another opportunity.
            (2) The vast majority of upline has the majority of their income come from Amway, you are wrong to suggest otherwise
            (3) People are clearly told, mutiple times, about the fact people earn income from BSM – not that they should need to be told, since it’s blindingly obvious to anyone with 2 neurons that if something is being sold, people are making money
            (4) You continue to be dishonest and claim that WWDB and other BSM organisations do not profit share. You have been told numerous times this is incorrect.

            Continue to willfully spread falsehoods and I’ll have little choice but to ban you from commenting further on this site.

          5. You, just like me or anyone else are left to guess what percentage of a BSM group leader’s income comes from tool sales … you guess less and I guess more.

            But the key point is that the truth of this percentage is kept secret .. but who is keeping this secret? the BSM leaders of course. In fact they refuse to even discuss it as if it doesn’t even exist.

            If it’s 1% why wouldn’t they just come out and say it. Because it’s much more than that.

            But you’re left to guess … but you act like you have facts. Well, do you have facts or are you in fact just guessing?

        2. honesttalk1,
          You have been given current, up-to-date, facts over and over and OVER again, and are refusing to accept them. Here the facts are AGAIN:

          #1–The BSM income is NOT a secret. The Amway Business Opportunity Brochure (in North America), which is required to be given to ALL prospects when showing the Amway opportunity clearly states (page 14):
          “Some successful IBOs share their knowledge of success through the creation and sale of Business Support Materials (BSM), under the guidance of the AMWAY™ ACCREDITATION PLUS™ Program. The intent of these optional materials is to help IBOs succeed in reaching their goals. BSM may include DVDs, CDs, books, websites, seminars, and business conventions. The additional income some IBOs may earn from the sale of BSM is separate from their earnings under the Amway IBO Compensation Plan.”

          “The additional income” means…that…there…is…income.

          #2–The ones making money from the BSMs are not allowed to disclose how much they make from their BSM business, per Amway
          Per the Accreditation Plus guidelines, when showing the plan,
          “All income representations must be limited to income from the Amway™ business opportunity and provide realistic, not exaggerated, income potentials and lifestyle expectations.”

          #3—And since you didn’t answer ibofb’s question about Accreditation Plus, it is just one more piece of evidence that you are completely lacking in knowledge, of what is going on in the Amway business TODAY, in the 21st century, in the year 2011.

          1. So with “Accreditation Plus” everything about BSMs is above board … and the BSM groups tell what percent of their income comes from BSM sales?

            If not, you can call it what you want, it’s not above board because it’s a different opportunity to make money.

            A new IBO invites someone in but the BSM group gets all the profit (share $0) from the BSM sales even though the BSM leaders didn’t do the effort to invite the new person in.

  29. Amway is the biggest scam on the planet! Been around for years!
    Who the hell uses SA8 soap anyways? They hooked me for awhile many years ago and told me to “hide the products” until I got done showing the plan. We don’t want to “scare them away” until we get them hooked.
    Same old scam.

    1. Well gee, my mother was using SA8 soap 30 years ago when I was a kid, and still does. So do I. Probably the best environmentally friendly washing powder available (indeed Consumer Reports found exactly that a few years ago!) Just because you were scamming people doesn’t mean everyone operates that way. As I said – Amway is not a scam, but you can still be scammed. It’s a good think folk like you aren’t IBOs anymore. Good riddance I say.

  30. IMAGINE if there is only 1 Wal-Mart.
    IMAGINE if there is only 1 McDonalds.

    This company [Amway] has been around since 1959. The way to make your bussiness grow is Duplicating what you have done. The company has been “green” since 1959 wow. While other companies are trying to go “green” in the past 5 years, Amway has been green for 51 years now. Not only that, we have 8 STAR K KOSHER CERTIFIED products as well all certified by RABBI ELYAHU SHUMAN.

  31. Hi,

    I joined Amway few weeks back.

    I see people making money and becoming millionaires and during all the hype was able to find one thing.

    “If you have a dream and you think you can grow your tree then you can do it.”

    People who cannot grow their tree but have burning desire for money they are helped by uplines.

    Products are not fake surely; business is not scam that is also true and products are little expensive.

    Now for becoming a millionaire we need one thing stop quitting and have patience; needs to be enthusiastic, motivated with leadership skills.

    Know that I know business is legit and products are not fake I decided to join Amway.

    Most of the replies I see for Amway are 90% people fail. Yes that is true because not everyone cannot do business; sooner or later people get demotivated when everybody they meet say a big NO to them.

    Till now I have nobody under my tree and heard a lot of NO from people; but that all had failed because I do not quit.

    I see that this business is for people who have faith in themselves and people who are already in this business and who are ready to grow their tree.

    So bottom line is
    1) business is legit
    2) products are nice but expensive
    3) Do you have a zeal that you can sell like rocket and become rich
    4) If you have a dream and need ve enery join it.
    5) Not meant for those people who think they will become rich by only joining Amway. I do not know anybody who have created a big time business only by joining and then doing nothing
    6) Since products are not fake; Amway is not going to go away in darkness even if 90% people fail. 10% people with their leadership will continue to drive the business.

    I became money conscious at age of 12 years and since then I have read numerous books to give me all the energy I need to become a millionarie. I analyzed people will success stories; always fired up with enthu and when my friend showed me this business, one bell rang inside my head

    This is it! I want it and I will have it!

    After few years I will come back to this thread again.

    Nikhil Bhatia

    1. Please come back wise one, haha

      About Amway:
      Amway in north America hit the highs during the 1980s, the company went through a crisis in the late 90s and tried to re-establish that lost excitement by changing it’s name to Quixtar, later in 2008 they reverted back to Amway because it was too easy for people to isolate the poor growth in North America given they had the unique Quixtar name. Now they are able to claim Amway growth as Amway growth, but that includes untapped international markets.

      North America is not an untapped market for Amway, if it were 1970 then you would have the chance to “get out of it what you put in” but the 12 main lines of sponsorship were created some time ago and that period will never happen again in Amway North America.

      Support Groups:
      Be VERY careful of the upline support group’s structure because they are not all the same. Many leadership groups in North America supplemented the poor growth above with tools/functions/membership charges.

      Amway pays for all the PV/BV your group moves, they share profit in a way … whereas the support groups do not, you invite 10 people to one of their functions, you get zero!

      Never forget the most important question for a new IBO, “how much money do you make” ask that of your upline and their upline … about 99% of the time the person will become elusive. That includes the people that post on this site. They make nothing, never have and never will probably.

  32. I am about to take part in this awesome opportunity. An upline is going to give me details tommorow. Based on the conversation i had with him, i have a dozen oportunities to build on. I have read about a thousand blogs simmilar to this one to see if Amway is legit. To sum up what I have learned from these arguments.

    YOU ONLY GET OUT WHAT YOU PUT IN!!! just like any other business venture. By the way, this is coming from someone who has started a business before.

    Digressing that subject, i was hoping for a little advice from those with experience.

    1. It’s not as simple as “getting out what you put in”.

      About Amway:
      Amway in north America hit the highs during the 1980s, the company went through a crisis in the late 90s and tried to re-establish that lost excitement by changing it’s name to Quixtar, later in 2008 they reverted back to Amway because it was too easy for people to isolate the poor growth in North America given they had the unique Quixtar name. Now they are able to claim Amway growth as Amway growth, but that includes untapped international markets.

      North America is not an untapped market for Amway, if it were 1970 then you would have the chance to “get out of it what you put in” but the 12 main lines of sponsorship were created some time ago and that period will never happen again in Amway North America.

      Support Groups:
      Be VERY careful of the upline support group’s structure because they are not all the same. Many leadership groups in North America supplemented the poor growth above with tools/functions/membership charges.

      Amway pays for all the PV/BV your group moves, they share profit in a way … whereas the support groups do not, you invite 10 people to one of their functions, you get zero!

      Never forget the most important question for a new IBO, “how much money do you make” ask that of your upline and their upline … about 99% of the time the person will become elusive. That includes the people that post on this site. They make nothing, never have and never will probably.

  33. wow… much like other groups, there seems to be a massive difference in opinion between current IBOs and people on the outside/ex IBOs… dont know if thats due to the ex IBOs not being able to hack it…

    I’ll have to look and see how it would work for me here in the UK but it’s defo an interesting prospect. I dont see how “making less money than the people at the top or earning more money from more people UNDER you joining or doing well” is any different from any other business?! IM sure most franchise businesses are the same?! lol in fact drug dealers work pretty much the same way!

    Im still un-decided, but if anyone could email me a site that details IBOs for beginners, id be grateful,as talk of LOA and MLM is scrambling my egg… i’ve looked for “ibos for dummies” but drawn a blank! 😉

    1. hmmm … IBOs for dummies … could be a good idea to write 🙂 Amway’s own websites give a reasonable overview, but different groups have different strategies, and different markets have different rules as well. UK and France for example are different to I think any other Amway market.

  34. Obviously, that was only one of the twenty or so price comparisons my and I did for ourselves after hearing the Amway sales pitch. The prices were from our neighborhood grocer. Not another online site. Again let me say, the products are fantastic, their truly second to none. I was given many samples from my potential up line and found all of them to be of comparable and in most cases superior quality to those we use daily. My issue is this. My upline continuously compares shopping at Walmart with buying from your own online store. Try convincing a mother of 4(whose father was a victim of downsizing) on a fixed income who you’ve promised to lower her monthly grocery bill that these prices are better. She clips coupons and bargain shops with the same diligence and regularity as taking a breathe. Amway is a very prestigious company as well,as a matter of fact, when we had trade embargos with Panama decades ago Amway continued to pay their IBOs from that area monthly based on their previous averages. And we could talk about charities all day as we could many of our largest companies. Bottom line is the best way to polish a tarnished image is to give to those who need. Mission accomplished. As the morals and dignity comments. Maybe a little out of line I admit. I didn’t mean to imply that you are the opposite. But you have to admit, IBOs have their hands full justifying the business to potential signups who do even a modicum of online research. This blog for example. As many people there are for positive there’s usually twice as many to the contrary. Why is that? Because they get fed a steady stream of financial freedom and the Amway dream that only .01% of the IBOs ever attain. Call it what you want. Good sales tactics or bill of goods, its a little deceiving to sit in on an Amway pep rally only to have Toto pull the curtain back. But obviously you people wouldn’t defend the ship so adamantly if it weren’t working for you. I’m not trying be condescending with question, but how many $800 water filtration systems have you guys sold. I was told the savings came with the everyday purchases(like paper towels)you make. Maybe I need a different upline

    1. 20/20Vision,
      The thing that upsets me, and I’ve seen it even from people that I respect and admire, is selling the Amway opportunity by comparing it to Wal-Mart (or Costco, or any of those big box stores).

      The Corp did a blog post about such a comparison over here…

      And ibofightback did a blog post about the stupidity of telling people they are going to save money as a way of promoting the business opportunity, over here…

      The Amway Business is a wonderful opportunity. But if it’s presented inaccurately, then the prospective IBO is either a wrong fit, or gets poorly trained on how to built it successfully.

      To help make things right (in the U.S.) there is a 90-day money back guarantee on the registration and the Welcome Pack. I hope all new IBOs who feel that this business is not a good fit for them, take advantage of this guarantee. This will help the Corporation identify certain pockets of potential misrepresentation.

      1. I have a legitimate question here:

        Is there a minimum monthly production that an IBO is expected to achieve? Just curious. I do like the products, and hell, if I can get a kickback from buying the products, I might jump in.


        1. Hi Don,
          No there are no minimum monthly requirements, ie compulsory autoshipping type of deals some companies enforce. To earn a bonus on your groups volume, Amway does require you to have 50 points in registered customer volume, ie from your personal sales or personal website sales. If you don’t generate that you still get the rebate on your own purchases and there’s no penalties. Jump! 🙂

      2. You say it’s 90 day money back guarantee, yet it was stated above it was 180 day money back guarantee by Kristina. Which one is it? It seems information is misleading from everyone on this website and condescending.

          1. Further clarification:

            In the U.S.:
            *There is a 90-day guarantee on the registration and Welcome Kit.

            *There is a 180-day guarantee on products–for both customers and distributors/IBOs.

  35. If we are going to have an intelligent discussion, let’s not talk about paper towels. Seriously. While one can purchase paper products though Amway (in some markets), paper products is not where Amway, or their distributors make their money. It is not their specialty, their focus, nor their identity.
    Amway owns Nutrilite, the #1 (based on sales–about $3 billion at distributor cost, not suggested retail price) supplement company in the world.
    Nutrilite is the only global vitamin and mineral brand to grow, harvest, and process plants on their own certified organic farms—6,400 acres of organic farmland.
    They also own Artistry, which is in the top 5 of prestige brands, with over $1 billion in sales. And ingredients used in the skin care, anti-aging products of Artistry come from the Nutrilite botanicals.
    Amway is a global health and beauty company. So let’s talk Echinacea and moisturizers. 🙂

    1. Yeah, Amway owns all of these things because people like you keep devoting your life to them and only make pocket change. If you are an IBO, you do not work for Amway. You are not an employee. They don’t care about you. They just want you to keep getting more and more people into the process so they can get them to buy more of their products. How much money do you make selling Amway products minus your expenses, products you have bought, and the “tools” you have purchased? If you are so confident in this MLM (pyramid scheme) business, show everyone some proof.

      1. Right – so we don’t work for Amway, and we’re not employees. But they depend entirely upon us for their revenue. And you claim they “don’t care” about us? Oh yeah, that makes sense. Go get a clue.

  36. Those are some interesting comments and very persuasive arguments guys. Amway has done their job well keeping you motivated. Which brings me to my first point. Why does Amway need to spend so much time and money keeping you motivated? Shouldn’t your profits do that?
    Here’s the problem. Say I buy (as a customer and not an IBO)rolls of paper towels from you. I pay 48 bucks for 24 rolls. 90 sheets on each roll. That works out to roughly 2 cents per sheet. I just bought at my local grocer an 8 pack at 5 bucks. 50 sheets per roll. That’s 1.25 per roll. And that was without the benefit of a coupon(not to mention double coupons)or a sale card so theoretically I could get that price even lower. That same markup stays true for every single product in the catalog. You’d have to be a moron to want to pay nearly double for all your everyday amenities.(Or just a loving mother supporting their kids ridiculous new “business”.) Its impossible to save money on your groceries being an Amway customer. However if your an IBO with a moderately sized downline this trend is stopped and yes, these products become very affordable and in most cases free. But there in lies the problem. You need a downline. Not only do you need a downline, your downline has got to have a downline and so on. This would be fine if you had an endless supply of patsy fodder banging down your door. But that’s not the case. You work hard on your marks…err downline IBO’s I should say. It takes at least 10 leads to have sitdown with a prospect and then beyond that you still have convince them to join. And that pattern carries infinitesimally until we’re all drinking the proverbial kool-aid. Or at least everyone heard the sales pitch so many times that they are no longer fooled by your “don’t mention Amway until they’re inside the meeting” ploy. You know what I’m talking about too. So in summation, great products, I will not dispute that claim. They would sell themselves being affordably priced. But they do come with a heftier price tag beyond that. Your everlasting soul.

    1. * sorry that was 1.25 per sheet. For those of you who would have criticized my math skills. Those may be in question but my morals and dignity remain intact.

      1. Morals and dignity? Sorry 20/20 but I’m not going to be as polite as Bridgett.

        Amway. We’re talking about the world’s largest and most successful nutritional supplements company. We’re talking about one of the world’s largest and most successful cosmetics and skin care companies. We’re talking about the world’s largest seller of home water treatment systems. We’re talking about the company that introduced “biodegradeable” to the mass market, with some of the world’s first environmentally friendly cleaning products. We’re talking about a company doing pioneering work in nutrigenomics, a company behind the emerging Qi standard for wireless electricity.

        And you want to talk about paper towels???

        Why? Why on earth would you want to talk about paper towels? A product Amway doesn’t even make! Did the Amway website somwhere promote the idea the Amway business was about marketing paper towels? Did some Amway IBO really come to you, explain the business, and talk about paper towels as the way to success?


        But heck, I’ll bite! Amway in North America does indeed offer paper towels for sale. Several types in fact. They don’t manufacture them. Apart from appearing on the website they produce no marketing materials for them. No “how to sell paper towels” DVDs. No “Amway Paper Towels” television advertisements. No “Amway Paper Towels” spokesperson. Nothing. In fact, they put them in a category they describe as being for convenience of IBOs – not for retail customers, not for building a business.

        They do one thing though. If you check out Meadowbrook Paper Towels, the product you chose, they talk about the type and quality of the product, such as the fact it’s 2-ply and has special technology that makes it more absorbent. This helps you determine if it’s the type of quality you’d buy or not, and aid in comparison with competitors. If that’s not enough they even mention the brand they believe it’s competing with – Proctor & Gamble’s Bounty.

        Did you check that product out “20/20”? Here it is on, on special for $35.99 for a pack of 30×52 sheet rolls.

        That’s 2.3 cents per sheet.

        How much did you calculate the product available throught Amway to cost?

        That’s right, 1.25 cents per sheet. 46% cheaper than the competitor via

        Your morals and dignity may remain intact. You may want to consider moving them, intact, to somewhere with a better view. I expect “20/20vision” is much more effective when your get your head out of your a**.

    2. To set the record straight: 8)
      “That same markup stays true for every single product in the catalog.”

      First: Which catalog? There are currently five (5) printed catalogs in the U.S. market–Artistry, Nutrilite, Essential Home, Personal Accents, and Ribbon.

      Second: No, the retail margin is not the same for every product. (Again, talking about the U.S. market.) The products are split up in four (4) distinct pricing structures.

      And as ibofighback pointed out, the paper towels are in the “Convenience” category and are not designed to be retailed because the retail profit is the lowest, nor promoted to one’s downline as income generators, since their PV/BV is the lowest.

      (Though I do purchase some of the “Convenience” products not out of convenience, but because they are better than anything else I’ve tried on the market, like the ever-lasting role of the Meadowbrook Stretchable Plastic Wrap. But I digress…)

      ”It takes at least 10 leads to have sitdown with a prospect and then beyond that you still have convince them to join. And that pattern carries infinitesimally until we’re all drinking the proverbial kool-aid.”

      If you promote the Amway Business Opportunity in which the way to make money is to hawk paper towels, then yes, you are correct. Toilet paper and tampons would fit in to that smart business plan as well. 😉

  37. “we make money through sales volume.”

    o really? yet SCAMWAY doesn’t allow the ‘independent business owner’ to advertise their independent business on their own website?

    1. “we make money through hamburger sales volume.”

      o really? yet McSCAMBURGERs doesn’t allow the ‘independent business owner’ to advertise their independent business on their own website?

      you’ve blown a gasket “Car Tuning”, and I suspect the motor is severely damaged.

  38. Honesttalk12 you talk like an IBO who wasnt able to make it and needs to vent because you cant get over it why not just dust yourself off and try again or you could alway work for 40 yrs and see how that plan gets ya. Why should someone whos new who hastn worked in the buz have the same rewards as someone whos has build the buz your talking crap but each to their own merry christmas and have a great new year.

    ps come back and let us all know of your brilliant plan to retire in 5 years. if you didnt make it in amway what are you doing now to better your life

    1. If you’ve caught up, my beef is specifically with BSM groups in North America. A great majority of new IBOs in North America usually get invited into Amway through one of these groups who’s leaders make a great deal of their money from selling things like: Function tickets, CDs, Voicemail, Memberships, InfoSystems … etc. Why? probably because growth in Amway has been pretty non-existance in North America so the leaders have adjusted their attention from helping people break new pins to just lining their own pockets with activities that regular IBOs can’t profit in … that is selling expensive BSMs.

      “come back and let us all know of your brilliant plan to retire in 5 years.”
      Nice one, that’s the Business Support Material group’s biggest sales pitchs … basically they are saying unless someone has a better option you should stay around because you’ve now uncovered the mystery key to life that nobody else knows or understands… and you can get it through buying 100% of the tools and functions.

      Ok, lets talk about it. I dare you to go around your next function and ask every person that started Amway mlm 5 years ago, in 2005-06, to see if any of them are retired … ohh that number will probably closest to zero.

      Help yourself, you can look straight into the face of 5 year Amway IBOs (5 years was your number not mine) and see if they have all the riches and glory you’re thinking you’ll have in 5 years.

      In case you’re wondering I wouldn’t trade places with any of the 5-year IBOs you’ll be talking to.

      Btw, the one thing you can be certain of is that all the 5 year IBOs you’ll be talking to will have all spent $100s on function tickets for which only the BSM leaders will share in the profit.

      1. what expensive BSM are you talking about? Whenever I’ve done price comparisons with the BSM company I use, they are nearly always significantly cheaper than similar material from non-Amway specialising companies. I suppose you just made that up, like Kim being FAA four million or whatever you said?

        btw “honesttalk”, using a false email address is normally grounds on this site for having comments deleted, please stop doing so

          1. I notice you continue to use a fake email address. Consider this your second and last warning. As to your post, what’s your point? Is it some type of misguided attempt at irony? Asking someone who has made no attempt to do what is necessary to “retire” in 5 years how to retire in 5 years? Here’s a thought – find someone who has done it, and ask them for advice. Brilliant, no?

          2. My Upline HAS been in this 5 years and is retired! His wife is also now retired and they have all the time in the world to raise their new born son together!!!!!!! Proving once again that you have no point!

  39. Thanks to all the ibo’s and even the naysayers! i have found your conversation to be VERY HELPFUL! I am A former ibo as well. I have found that it is extremely important to be focused and have a clear idea of what your goals are regarding this business. Many members in my family have been in amway for a decade. some of them have had success and others did not Ihowever do not feel that just because they did not attain a certain level of success (yet*) that it isnt possible for ME! last december i decided not to renew because i was dealing with a few personal issues however i plan to re-register this spring* I registered into this business after TERREL AND MARGRET HARDY (DIAMOND IBO’S) came to show the plan @ my upline’s home out on long island,NY… I felt honored to have such a successful couple teaching me how to do EXACTLY WHAT THEY DID. I BELIEVE IN THIS SYSTEM AND THAT IT CAN WORK FOR ME. ive also found that whenever people bash any legitimate business opprotunity they are usually trying to make them feel better about their inadequacies! lack of: motivation, ambition, detication, desire, and most of all FAITH! because afterall if you dont believe in you who will?

    1. Oh, don’t misunderstand … it’s a legit business opportunity, it’s just that you’re not able to share in the profits of the actual business that is making all the diamond’s a great portion of their money.

      Keep this in mind when you spending $100s a month on; CDs, Mp3s, support tools, function tickets, voice mail, etc. etc. All the while you’ll be cashing in $5 to $50 bonus checks … operating in the red.

      Legit Business? … sure, someone IS definately making profit on those BSM purchases you’ll be making it just won’t be you.

      1. I would just like to add my 2 cents in from a new IBO persective (about one month). I have noticed on this blog that the negative bloggers keep talking about the 100’s of dollars a month spent on BSM’s, events, and workshops that an upline/sponsor pressures there new IBO’s into buying to make these serect profits to bascially rip you off and scam you.

        I can HONESTLY say that I have not had to spend a single PENNY on any of that stuff nor did anyone tell me I had to.

        I use my IBO amway account to side supoort my other business. Which is my own company (not a MLM) that I started from the ground up 3 years ago. There are numerous ways that I have been able to help my business with my IBO account. Just by switching where I bought the items that my business needed on a daily basis I’m able to get them at wholesale prices, delivered to my office, and I got a check in the mail yesterday for about $150 from amway for my first month which more than covered my IBO registration and left me with some extra money. Also by just having the products in my office … I have gotten 2 customers in my first month without really having to do anything becuase the products spoke for them selfs. I also signed up an IBO today becuase a friend of mine with a household of 6 wanted to know how I was saving some money every month on my everyday items in my household. Yes, I’m not a diamond or ruby but a lot of people were asking about real figures so there … a honest answer for you from a brand new IBO. I’m VERY VERY happy with being an IBO with Amway.

        And being that I did start 2 small business on my own when I was 17 and again at 25 I can say it’s not easy starting a company from the ground up … it takes years and hard work. And you may need to close and reopen as I had to experience with my business.

        Amway gives you a head start if you want to be more independent, don’t have a product or service to offer, and want some freedom from the 8-5 jobs … but it’s hard work. Any business is hard work!!! And I can guarentee that most people have NO IDEA what that means. It’s not the same as working hard as an employee for someone else …. OH NO it’s a whole nother playing field. Not everyone can handle it, actually I would say most people CAN’T. But for those not making it a career … the extra income from amway is very nice no matter how big or small it is.

        Amway is not going to be for everyone, but it doesn’t mean you gotta turn into a hater of the company. FACTS is key, not your personal feelings becuase it didn’t work out for you. All the calls I make in any of my business are based on FACTS and NUMBERS.

        Also I forgot to mention I had a IBO account about 13 years ago but my upline was crazy person … and I had no idea what I had just signed up for or what I was suppose to be doing (I was very young and in High School still). NOW I have a GREAT UPLINE and it’s a 100% different experience for me. It’s all upfront and they have answered every single question that I have asked and trust me I have asked many questions. And again I haven’t had to buy a single BSM product.

      2. The purpose of this page is to talk about “Amway is not a scam, but you can still be scammed”.

        Let me get you up to speed because you’ve apparently missed the point. I’ve not been critical of Amway, its products, or even it’s PV/BV schedule … however, this page is named what it is because of the Business Support groups that develop “Tools” and sell them at large profits by which the larger pins build their blosterous lifestyles from.

        I’m nailing the target with many of my comments as they would apply to a new North American IBO who may search around and wonder what they should watch out for and/or wonder what they could be getting themselves into with their newly found “best buddies” in a BSM support org.

        If that’s not you and your upline isn’t pushing tools then great, congratulations! You’re in the minority! I say more power to you. Again young biz, I haven’t once focused my comments against Amway, its products, or PV/BV schedule have I?

        So if you want to talk lets focus on the subject matter, that is the name of this page after all: “Amway is not… but you can still be scammed”

      3. honesttalk12
        You are really very annoying!!! I have nearly fallen asleep several times watching you talk Bridgett and IBOFB in circles! Your negative comments and unnecessary stabs at those who actually enjoy what they do shows clearly who you are! Your bad experience doesn’t not prove anything about Amway! If anything it shows that you didn’t have what it takes and are now trying to viscously steal dreams from others!!! You can’t define a business by one person! They same way you can’t assume because someone is a cop or a priest that they are good people! I know someone who is a firefighter and has been taken to jail for two domestic violence charges!!!!!

        THIS IS NOT A GET RICH QUICK SCHEME AND THOSE WHO SEE IT THAT WAY CAN SEE THEMSELVES TO THE DOOR!!! PEROID!!! It takes work, time, being persistent and consistent.

        I found out that my upline platinum made money off my membership within a couple months of getting in. I was still learning the numbers at the time so I didn’t really notice at first that this is explained in black and white in my organizations plan! Ours quite clearly explains that if you reach the top of the pay scale the mentorship pays you to mentor others…hmmmm…your right that makes no sense what so ever (sarcasm implied). I know that my upline makes money of my membership…so what??? They have earned it!!! I only JUST got back on my membership! I had membership my first month and that was it. No one treated me any different in fact the worked harder to help me since they had access to a website I didn’t! You really have got to stop generalizing! No business is perfect the same way no person is perfect! If you got into a team that you feel didn’t treat you right than you should have been better at reading people. Which by the way you would have if you have read the book How to Win Friends and Influence People (a great people skills book) Take a guess where I got that book…..had enough time? MY MEMBERSHIP!!!!!!!! And I don’t spend no $100 a month either! More like $40! And as I have already stated I wasn’t on it for quite a while. So if someone really wanted to they could still run this business and not pay a membership!

        I work with people who are the kind of people I aspire to be myself. I was sponsored in depth to someone who I don’t even think is going to last as I don’t think she has what it takes or thinks about things correctly. The reason I say that is because my mom was a customer of someone else before I got into business! She buys from both of us!!! When I told my co-sponsor this she told me that it wasn’t right and she needed to quit buying from the girl! What you are saying with your generalizations is that because I have a bad co-sponsor I should just quit??? Ha not going to happen!!!!!!

        It’s time to wake up honesttalk12!!! If you didn’t like your organization do some research! Find a group who are kicking butt and taking names and see if they are willing to sponsor you! Everyone grows at their own rate! Everyone has different experiences! GET OVER IT!

        1. Oh and I almost forgot…(honesttalk12) I honestly think your just jealous of the BSM’s cuz you couldn’t come up with a concept like that! And as you’ve already pointed out that your no fan of Amway what is your brillant plan…that’s right you don’t have one!!!

    1. Joy – as long as an IBO is acting like a true business person and analyzing the ALL costs of being involved this MLM then I suggest they continue.

      All are told they are “business owners” but act like drones spending most their money on Business Support Materials waiting and hoping they are next to scratch the lotto ticket with some strange

      If you disagree with me just get to work and prove me wrong, I dare you… go show the plan 7 nights a week for a year straight, if you don’t you’re fooling yourself and you’re wasting your time blogging.

      1. honesttalk12,
        I don’t believe that showing the plan seven nights a week straight for a year is a good idea.
        I believe the LOA you were in, the head of that LOA showed the plan 1-2 times a week for 2 years and built a Rubyship. It was only after that, did he go “full time” and built a Diamondship 2 years later, and the foundation for his current Crownship.
        From my experience, as an active IBO, both my personal experience as well as with our “downline’s” experience, having an intense work habit is not the answer 99% of the time. And it often times even damaging.
        People have jobs and lives outside of their Amway Business. So to ask them to “put the peddle to the metal” with such an intense work habit, is unrealistic in most cases.
        Building the Amway Business more gradually, and steadily, IMO, is far more attractive, duplicatable, sustainable, and successful.

        1. The one thing a lot of people have a hard time understanding is that the MLM world is completely different than it was in the 70s and 80s when all the “heros” actually built their organizations.

          Furthermore, the overhead of BSMs (Functions, voicemail, CDs, Mp3, various tools, and memberships) were not in place when people like Ron Puryear built his business. He focused on building a business with 25 retail clients. BSMs now run an IBO a couple hundred a month on average.

          If the BSM overhead had been in place RP wouldn’t have been able to even be involved because his wife was working nights at Denny’s for them to even make ends meet. Couldn’t justify hundreds a month in things that didn’t make himself money.

          1. Rather, you have no prepared dancing words to say against it because I hit the nail on the head and they don’t talk about that huge difference at any of the meetings you go to and learn your perspectives.

            You claim to know about who my upline was, and if so you made a mistake that most people make in Amway… that is talking about the people that built their businesses in the 70s and 80s and acting like it’s still applicable.

            Those people in the 70s-80s focused on building Amway with 25 clients, thus producing retail profit and business volume on every action in the business… eventually other people would want to work the opportunity because the focus was not on BSMs but rather getting the newest people profitable as soon as possible. Imagine that!

            So you want to talk about WWDB or Ron Puryear then lets talk about him … he simply did not have to pay $100s a month in overhead for BSMs while he was building business, if he had he would have a business … and that would mean no Leonard Kim (which is 90% of the success in Amway in the last 10 years .. but it’s in Korea which is a different market and work habit).

            So, the focus should be (but isn’t) on what profits the NEW IBOs make … not creating a side BSM business that only the big pins share in, certainly if those big pins didn’t have to come up with the same amount of overhead BSM $$ when they were in the early creative stages of building their businesses.

            This is true of Yager and Britt … so the point pretty much applies to 90% of the people in Amway.

          2. honesttalk12,
            My comment was responding to your suggestion of showing the plan seven nights a week for a year.
            Your comment was about BSMs. Shocking! 🙂

          3. honesttalk12,
            When were you an IBO? I ask because I’ve been around for a while and have seen the changes which have occurred.
            Amway started a Transformation back in September 2007. Over the last three years, the focus has gone back to where it should be, and was lacking for a long time–the profitability of the brand new IBO (and all IBOs for that matter).
            Retailing has been a major focus. Not because that’s where most of people’s time should be spent, but because that was an area seriously lacking for many IBOs.
            Cutting down on costs, such as BSMs, has happened, with Amway providing some of those things now, for free.
            Redesigning training modules has occurred, in order to provide people of the 21st century more effective and impactful teaching.
            Meeting people where they are at, and not having a one-size-fits-all mentality with the Amway Business opportunity, has been taught over and over and over again.
            Is every single Diamond on board? Is every single Emerald, Platinum, IBO on board? No. And their businesses will suffer. The Corporation is changing, the world is changing. And those LOAs not on board will die a painful death. As we’ve seen since the Transformation started, with 15 Diamonds being terminated, and more resigning, who weren’t willing to change.
            So while I appreciate what you are saying, it all feels so two minutes ago.

          4. I’m not sure when the light bulb is going to go off for you but I know it will at some point.

            New IBOs start the business and, if they are part of the most well known Support Orgs, their attention is quickly diverted to buying BSMs and attending functions … whereas honest leaders should be helping them focus on the activities where they can actually make profit. Like Britt, Yager, and Puryear did in the first years of their businesses … issue is they built huge profit generating BSM sales overhead for everyone else after they passed through the gates.

            I brought up 7 nights a weeks because that’s how it’s done in Korea (Leonard Kim)… if you want to talk like you know about the “exciting” growth going on in Amway then get real … Korea has made up 90% of any new diamond in Amway for quite a few years. North America breaks 1 to every 100 Korean diamond, conservatively.

            So, wouldn’t it be an interesting subject to talk about how they do it? Ooohhh, no Bridgett thinks differently … but who cares what you think you’re probably barely a 2,500 pin scratching together a big order at the end of every month just to keep that pin level.

            You just debate every point because you don’t build the business, you blog on here and act like some kind of wise old women river that has reached enlightenment about Amway yet you don’t ever face the real issues … the issues as to why you and your group is not growning.

            —–Let me sum it up, once again—–

            Focus on what makes a new IBO profitable (like Britt, Yager, and Puryear did in the beginning) or share this thing 7-10 a week like Leonard Kim and Co. do … those are really your only two options or you can just forget it …

            At no time is there any place or any huge leader that made it by hiking all over the country to attending everyone else’s fuctions and spending $100s a month on someone else’s Business Support Materials overhead.

            Also, drop the “bad egg” bit … the biggest business support groups in north america have built huge profit generating machines out of BSM sales to new IBOs so its not just random no-names making everyone else look bad.

          5. honesttalk12,
            I believed I addressed what you are talking about in my last comment. And as I said, those LOAs which are not willing to change will soon fade away.

          6. And honesttalk12,
            I notice, at least with me, that you seem to talk at me, and talk to me in general terms. Kind of blasting me, as if I represent some amalgamation of IBOs. And not just any IBOs, but a composite of only those with the most unattractive, negative traits. Rather than the individual that I am. Just an observation.
            In addition, you speak with a narrow view of the Amway Business. I can understand, since there are some LOAs which give the illusion that they ARE Amway. That they represent such a huge segment of the Amway community. And this is simply not true. There are MANY organizations.
            And so to use that “90%” figure repeatedly is, well, inaccurate.
            Another example is when you talk of Leonard Kim. His organization may have the largest growth in that particular LOA but that LOA is a small fraction in the entire world of Amway.
            And lastly, the Internet gives an inaccurate picture of people’s experience in the Amway business, as a whole. Typically, those willing to spend the time to post online, are those with complaints–particularly if they can do it anonymously. That’s not special to Amway, that’s how life is.
            Ironically, it was me wishing to vent that brought me online and in to Amway online discussion, back in June 2007, over at the corp’s blogosphere.
            Never before had I ventured online regarding this business. And it was my desire to be negative that got me here. Funny!
            Good luck to you honesttalk12. I hope 2011 brings you much joy, peace, and laughter. 🙂

          7. Well, as far as I know there is no IBO with more FAA points than Leonard Kim … last I heard he was a 200+ FAA point Crown Amb. Nobody’s anywhere even near that as far as I know … not Britt not Yager. Who’s bigger than that?

            So maybe you’re right, Leonard Kim is just a drop in the bucket … and you believe Britt and Yager are really just a small sample of the Amway world?

            I certainly think you’re mistaken about all the above. Nobody’s grown more than Leonard Kim in the last 15 years, and Britt and Yager make up a significant portion of the entire Amway world.

          8. Leonard and Esther Kim do not have 200 FAA points. The 200+ you are referring to are the number of Diamonds in their downline back in 2002. They now have over 400.
            The IBOship with the highest FAA points, is Holly Chen and her husband Barry Chi. I recently wrote about them on my blog (click my name to get to my blog). They hit Diamond in 1986. And are now Crown Ambassadors with the highest number of FAA points in the world of Amway, which is 70 FAA points.
            Yager has 60, Dornan has 50, Britt has 40, Kim has 40.
            And those are only the names I’m familiar with who have a large presence in the U.S. There are others, like Kaoru Nakajima from Japan with 50 FAA points.

          9. Well, they invented new pin names for the Kim’s so FAA +400 … whatever it’s semantics … anyone else break 400 diamonds in the last 15 years? Didn’t think so. My point is completely valid, Kim has been by far the fastest growning IBO in the entire world of Amway for the last 15 years. He is not of marginal importance.

            Blog huh … I would be interested to know if they erected a huge BSM profit making structure behind them, to take advantage of new people, or focused on helping new IBOs make money? Unlike Britt, Yager, and Puryear (Kim’s upline) …

          10. For a nickname of “honesttalk” you sure to sprout a lot of BS. The Kim business is not the largest Amway business in the world, and hasn’t broken 400 diamonds in a year. It’s a hugely successful business but there’s quite a few that are bigger. As Bridgett pointed out, Holly Chen is topping the list these days, with 70 FAA points. Thhe Kim’s explosion also happened in the early part of this century, I don’t think much has happened the last few years. In any case, the Kim’s currently have 40 FAA points, which they achieved in 2003. FAA points take in to account structure (and thus, profitability) – a leg with 400 diamonds is worth the same as one with 1 diamond. If they had 400 diamonds in their business, their immediate upline Diamond, Eugene Kim, has 401! Does that make them more successful?

            The Britt/Yager network does also not represent a majority of Amway. It may have done for a brief time in the 80s, but if it did then (which it probably didn’t) it certainly doesn’t now. You seem to have this idea that if you’ve experienced Britt/Yager (and addons like Puryear) then you’ve experienced Amway. You also seem to think if you experienced anything with Amway at any time, then you know all about all of Amway for all time.

            You haven’t.

            Here is the list of known Founders Crown Ambassadors and above

          11. I simply said Leonard Kim has been the fastest growning IBO for the past 15 years. Do you have another name that has grown faster in the last 15 year window?

            Also, I called him a +200 CAM but Bridgett corrected that to +400, so talk to her if you have an issue with him adding over 400 diamonds to his downline in the last 10 years.

            Which market do you live in? In North America Yager, Britt, and addons like Puryear are still significant names.

            Taiwan, Korea, China, …etc, you DONT live there.

          12. honesttalk12,
            If you want to focus on North America (the U.S. and Canada), then why do you keep talking about Leonard Kim? Virtually all his business in Korea.
            In fact, 90% of all of Amway’s business is not in the U.S. and Canada.
            So when you ask who has had the most growth in 15 years, what are you asking? In which market? If you mean in the North American market, then Holly Chen clearly has had more growth than Leonard, since she’s been on the cover of Achieve multiple times in the last two years alone, and Leonard has never been on it.
            (Achieve is North American version of the Amagram and its covers are normally reserved for those at the EDC level and above when they’ve reached a new level of achievment)
            Here is a partial list, and PDFs, of the Amagrams from around the world from the last few years…

        2. The purpose of this page is to talk about “Amway is not a scam, but you can still be scammed”. I’ve never once talked about the Amway products or the PV/BV schedule in a negative way.

          We were talking about Leonard Kim because his business has grown and it’s been based off the PV/BV schedule in Amway… and Ron Puryear is his upline so I was making the connection between NA Amway (where many leaders have decided to focus on BSM profit) and intl business in the same line of sponsorship. One grows and one doesn’t. Intl Amway, they are likely focusing on things that make all IBOs profitable… like PV/BV whereas many NA groups have changed the deal to BSMs, that is what new IBOs in north america typically have to deal with in many support orgs.

          What would I consider growth in Amway you ask? … wow, I hope it’s not been so long for you that you don’t even know it when you see it! I would consider growth in Amway what you should consider growth in Amway, that is having new people in my downline achieve new pin levels down multiple legs in “width” as well as those people width also building stability and breaking new pins in their own businesses called “depth”. That’s EXACTLY what I consider growth in Amway.

          Do tell, do you condsider growth in Amway something different? I gotta hear this!

          Adding 400+ Diamonds seems to fit that description, and therefore it would be nice to know how that did it wouldn’t it? Does a new IBO in North America have the same opportunity or is it saturated? If NA is saturated than maybe that’s why many NA BSM groups have switched their focus to BSM profits. Hmmmm, that’s a tough answer or come to grips with if your an IBO that’s spending $100 on tools and lining the pockets of you upline.

          But yeah, lets drop Amway Intl all together … I agree.

          How many diamonds have broke in North America in the last 5 years again?

          How many new pins, 1000 or at any level, have you added to your downline in the last year or two? I don’t care to know the answer but it’s nice food for thought for you.

      2. “Also, I called him a +200 CAM…”

        Actually you called him a “200+ FAA point Crown Amb.”

        In other words you are confusing the number of Diamonds in his total organization, and the number of FAA points he has.
        They are not one in the same.
        A Diamond leg, whether there is one Diamond or a thousand Diamonds within that leg, is worth 3 FAA points to the upline Diamond.
        (An Emerald leg=1.5, and a Q-12 Platinum=1)
        Amway pays based on FAA points (the number and the quality/ of the legs), not on how many total pins you have in your whole organization.
        Here is a chart and some explanation of FAA points.

  40. To ibofightback and Bridgett:

    I’ve been an IBO for almost 2 weeks now and I’m hopeful and optimistic about this business. I know it’s going to take a lot of hard work but I’m willing to do that. I have a couple of questions I was hoping you guys can answer for me:

    1) Any tips for a new comer?

    2) What are some good ways to get people interested in becoming an IBO? EX: what do I say, how do I present the business to them, etc.

    3) How do I better promote my website to grow my retail margin?

    I’m really looking forward to all the help I can get from veteran IBOs. Thanks!!!

      1. You mean
        1. Con a lot of people
        2. Con a lot of people
        3. con a lot of people.

        This is nothing more then a scheme. They brainwash everyone, look at these pro amway ambots. They are asked legitmitate questions and can’t answer them.

        I went to 3 meetings and each one was nothing but propaganda and rhetoric. Its a brainwashing cult. The only way it can work is to brainwash individuals into thinking everything and everyone else not involved are “morons”.

        The people involved in amway are weak minded retards.

    1. Before you waste your time blowing though countless people just for the sake of “talking to lots of people” think about these things:

      1) only ask for tips from people who are actually having success now and are willing to share hard facts about their incomes … so not successes from 1970 and certainly not smooth sounding cliches about success (like many of the people on here that spend more time blogging theory instead of ever actually building the MLM business), actual hard objective success they aren’t afraid to share with you.

      2) understand what it is you’re actually selling … is it a product or business opportunity or both?

      3) understand how the top people are actually making their money (selling tools, profits you won’t have access to) because if you don’t have access to what makes them successful (which you don’t) then you shouldn’t expect a similar result.

      1. I’m finding the conversations above very interesting. Although i’m somewhat suspect to of Amway from doing a little internet research (as pointed out, the pissed off will write more) i was able to find some charts of people explaining, at least potential percentages and how indeed, it is with the sales of BMS’s that money is made.

        But more particularly, ibofightback, when you are asked for, even minimal information (msgrocks1 and curiousabout data), you don’t answer them….

        1. most interested, I answered mgsrocks1 questions – and it was indeed a serious answers! That’s pretty much the key to the business. Anything else is pretty much specific to them and their circumstances, and as such neither I nor anyone else on this site is in a position to give good advice. Even what we think may be good advice can be the wrong advice for them. Curiousabout I asked a question of first, for the very reason I said – in my experience the very asking of the questions of that type indicates a lack of understanding of the business model – or alternatively an ulterior motive of deliberately asking them in order to try to mislead people. They haven’t bothered to respond to my question, so I haven’t bothered to respond further to theirs.

    2. Hi mgsrock1,
      I don’t know you or your situation, so to give any kind of meaningful tips is not feasible.
      But my “mantra” regarding IBOs as I’ve encountered more and more of them from outside my typical sphere (in person and on the Net) over the last couple of years is:

      “Don’t be weird.”

      I have been prospected in the goofiest ways by some IBOs, and fellow MLM/Network Marketers.

      I have witnessed odd verbiage by peeps in how they talk about this business, the products, themselves.

      So be normal. Be real. Be authentic. Be the kind of person that you’d like to hang around.

      And if you aren’t being that way, STOP. Recognize that you are being weird and just stop it and change…immediately. 🙂

      1. BRIDGETT dont be weird almost all IBO are weird they come at you all cult like my uncle keeps asking me to join since i dont join im stupid for it. its the chances of a life time what they say im going to join just to shut him up every time he see me he trys to bring me in he gets other IBO to try convince me how great it is one question is there any way to make a little money is you dont want to go around getting plp to join or selling

        1. charlie, there’s 3 to 4 million renewed IBOs in the world, which means there’s likely at least 6 million current IBOs. What percentage of them do you think you’d have to meet to make the judgment that “almost all IBO are weird”? How many have you met?

  41. A few questions to the current IBOs for the above discussions:

    1. What is the percentage of people at diamond or above level compared to the total membership of Amway (globally)?

    2. If you had to quote a number, roughly what is the percentage of operating cost compared to the total revenue for an average IBO at the different levels (especially at the entry level?

    1. CuriousAboutData – I’m curious why you want to know? In my experience the very act of asking those questions indicates you haven’t understood or researched the business very much, as neither are actually particularly sensible questions.

    2. In any business there are investments to be made. You have over head fee’s your still have to buy products advertisement, accountants, employees…etc, even the grand investment of college that does not ensure a job in your industry. I have wanted a business since I was 9 because I never saw myself working a 9-5. I have done research on business opportunities and guess what with any FRANCHISE there is money to be spent and no guarantee of success what if the location you picked didn’t attract enough costumers or the building maintained exceeded profits. I only have been an IBO for two days and you can’t go wrong the business materials are an investment into yourself and building confidence yes indeed it helps you move their products but you are not limited to use those skills only in AMWAY if you decided to invest into any other endeavors that’s up to you the IBO they can’t stop you. I depends on how business savvy you are ALL of the millionaires can tell you that their business start up was not easy and once they shown profit the invested their money into other things to in turn receive a greater profit.

      1. I am sorry but neither of you provided me with the information I requested.

        @ibofightback: Irrespective of how a business is run (process), it must have financial results (outcomes). I am only interested in the outcomes not the process.

        1. There are hundreds of thousands, even millions, of active Amway independent businesses in dozens and dozens of countries. Yes they have financial results. I have no idea what they all are, and neither does anybody else. They all put in different amounts of hours, have different goals, and different levels of effort and income. Sorry, but it’s essentially a nonsensical question. It’s like asking (except even more nonsensical) – what’s the average weight loss for runners?

          You question about precentage of Diamonds seems to assume that everyone has a goal to be Diamond, and puts in the effort to achieve it. Your question on income again assumes homogeneity of incomes and effort. Both assumptions are completely false and render the questions nonsensical.

          1. I am appalled by your condescending tone.

            If you don’t have a rough answer, please shut up and don’t post a reply to the question. The original question was not specifically targeted at you so there is no need for you to respond to the post if you think the question is unanswerable.

            If any other current IBO’s have an answer to my original questions, please feel free to respond.


          2. And I’m appalled by your condescending tone. You’ve asked questions that can’t be answered. I asked you why you were asking those questions, and you refuse to answer and simply sling insults back. I explain that your questions can’t be answered, more insults.

            I’d suggest that if you don’t want to ask sensible questions, the you can “please shut up and don’t post”. The questions you are asking are classic leading questions of MLM critics who have dishonest motives. Well, maybe “dishonest” is too harsh a word. Some of them may actually believe they’re intelligent questions and the answers mean something. The reality is the exact opposite. For almost all purposes they are unintelligent questions and the answers not only mean nothing, they can be misleading.

            So again I ask, why are you asking those questions?

          3. Hi CuriousAboutData,
            I don’t know if you are aware but…this is ibofightback’s website. So maybe that’s why he felt that you were directing your questions to him.

      2. CuriousAboutData,

        I am looking at your original two questions, and I’d say that unless one has a boatload of raw data, and unless that data is stagnant (which Amway data is very fluid, changing on a daily basis) your questions are impossible to answer in a meaningful way.

        I’d also add that whatever stats and data you are looking for, it is to answer other questions you have. Correct? The data and stats are to make certain conclusions. And so maybe if you just asked those questions (rather than looking for data that, as ibofightback implied, is meaningless) the answers to those questions might be very helpful to you.

    3. I am a current IBO with my husband and we have been in the business for 3 1/2 months, aside from the “family Reunion” (family Reunion is out of state and my husband wanted to go so that came out of pocket, but it is a tax write off) we make about 80% profit, the other 20% goes to gas for meetings and functions and for business supporting materials, which we find to be useful, but do not buy EVERYTHING there is to offer, we get what we believe is helpful (and there is a 180 day money back guarantee, even on BSM =) )

      I do not know the percentages for the first question, sorry.. but that’s my response to the 2nd question..

  42. Umm I’ma former IBO and, IB yea Amway is pretty much BS… if it was so easy to reach Diamond Council why is it that in over 40 years.. only 15 people have done it?? Bridget, IBOFB? are yall one of the 15.. I HIGHLY DOUBT IT.. why because the 15 that are really don’t give a damn about defending if amway is a scam or not.. why? BECAUSE THEY MADE IT TO THE TOP, if it was as easy as they make it seem trust me there would be many more then 15! and the funniest thing about it is that all the people that you look up too and talk to on the daily business they often try to preach that they aren’t your business partners they are your “long-life friends” but as soon as you have something come up in your life where you aren’t able to be an active IBO they look at you as if your a quitter or “MO-RON” as Larry Winters would say… It’s all a scam if those people really cared if you made it or not whether you got in business or got out they would still befriend you because of the ” close relationship” you have…but since you are no longer contributing to THEIR business and income you are no longer worth anything to them… go ahead leave your team for 2 weeks and see if things don’t change?? Amway is and always will be a Cult/Scam.. From a FORMER IBO!

    1. Uhhh … well someone is full of BS, that’s for sure. First of all nobody seriously suggests it’s easy to qualify Diamond. Secondly, over 4000 iboships have qualified Diamond or higher (15? Really? Did you just make that up?). As for your other comments, I’ve been an inactive IBO for many years due to various reasons, my upline has been nothing but great friends, the whole time, supporting me through thick and thin. Your mileage may vary, but there’s millions of people in Amway, of course there’s some unethical idiots! Some of them have even made it to Diamond 🙂

      Diamond is not the be-all end-all in the Amway Business.
      There are people very happy making money below the Diamond level. Perhaps the people you were working with didn’t let you know that? Perhaps the recognition of Diamond was so highly edified, rather than the profit at any level? If that’s the case, then your issue is with them, not with Amway.

      1. i also feel amway business is very deceptive spent 3 years in bww very true what former ibo said. when a 15 year ruby in pin only quit he was shunned by our diamond upline and they were good friends.

        1. How does that make the Amway business deceptive? There’s millions involved, thousands of Diamonds. My experience has been the exact opposite of yours. Amway is way bigger than you think!

          1. Amway is a waste of time. MLM is another name for a pyramid based company. If the only way to make money in an industry is to hire more people, that is a borderline scam. I understand that you might make a couple thousand convincing people to sign under you and then convincing them to sign more and more people. But you will never make enough money to justify all of that time and energy. If it was a real business, ibo’s wouldn’t have to be so secretive about the “great opportunity” they have to offer to everyone. Show me some proof that you made money and I will believe you. Really… Show me some proof. Stop wasting your time and join a different industry.

          2. If you’re a real business owner, can you please explain to me how there’s any business anywhere that DOES NOT require hiring of more people in order to expand, at some stage? If you’re still at the stage of needing “proof” that you can make money (as if it isn’t obvious and logical from the business plan) then clearly you’ve done pretty much zero research at all. Go do some before you bother commenting again.

  43. very very confused right now.. ahahaha.. I attended a meeting or rather a workshop yesterday… I was all for this joining business.. but now I’m more lost and confused than ever..

    1. DON’T JOIN!!!! You will get scammed out of your mind and you will waste your money, time and former relationships in this thing!

      1. How long does it take? I’ve been an IBO for … oohhh …. 13 years now. Still haven’t been scammed out of my mind, wasted my time or money, or lost any relationships. Since you’re such an expert, can you give me an idea how much longer I need to wait? Another decade or what?

  44. Thank you all for your posts here. I was approached by an IBO last night who started by saying that he had started a business, and then led the the discussion to Amway & BWW. What I liked about his approach
    1. No tall promises were made (however he kept referencing the millionaires and billionaires)
    2. Not an aggressive seller; but quite assertive
    3. Offered the same seminar and presentation (as mentioned by many others here)

    However, he just mentioned registration costs; and kept skipping questions on operating costs and the cost of material (books, CDs, brochures listed above).

    My response: Even though I need the extra money, I do not have 15-20 hours every week to put into this business. I have personally used some Amway products, and would say that they are quite effective. On a cost basis, I found them to be over-priced, but that is entirely my perspective.

    At first I thought that the scheme is a SCAM, but it seems as though it works, but for those who are willing to work on it. Obviously, it is not a magic wand that would get me $$ the day I walk in.

    Wish all you IBOs luck and thanks for keeping such an extensive website on educating people. Sorry, but Amway is just not my cuppa tea.

    1. ST,
      15-20 hours a week? Wow. That’s a lot of time. That time commitment would rule out many people–including me.
      In addition, people are turning a profit within 30 days of operating their Amway Business. And this is done through retailing a product. If the person who introduced you to the Amway Business didn’t mention the retail profit potential, then they are leaving out a critical aspect of what makes the Amway Business work.
      My one concern, that is evident by your comment, is that people make assumptions about the Amway Business based on their one interaction with one Amway IBO, or one group/LOA.
      A successful Amway Business can and has been built in more than one way. It is customizable based on a person’s short-term and long-term goals, based on their current circumstances regarding time commitments, and based on their current skill level with people and product needs.
      Thank you for your comments. I appreciate knowing how this business is being represented “out there.”

      1. I have been an IBO for many years, since before Quixtar launched from the original Amway model. I’ve had, and continue to have, some very good months… but I believe the conversation started with honesttalk asking what the profit schedule was. Nobody gave him a straight answer such as: Emeralds make $2 per tape and $4 per book sold. Instead you guys chose to not only NOT answer the question, you slammed him and created a permanent negative perception of an otherwise good thing. Whether or not i know what the BSM pays first hand by cashing the checks myself is irrelevant. If someone asks a question looking for answers don’t get defensive. Curiousity is a GOOD thing. He was obviously on this website for a reason, right? Do your homework and answer the question. I’ve sponsored some of my best friends because I am always honest with them. Discussions like that are what gives IBOs a bad name… and that is sad. Any time I see stuff like this happen downline from me, even if they are more than 20 deep and out of state, I will go out of my way to correct it. Re-read the conversation and what he was asking for… originally very politely. You will be surprised. I will not be checking this forum again, nor will I be reading any responses… But perhaps you might listen to a standing order from my wife and I and if you stick with it long enough, my words will make sense. You grow the business by building up people and serving others, even if they are negative at first! See you at the top!

        1. JcWarrior, I reread through the comments and “honesttalk”‘s very first comment was disparaging and full of falsehoods. I wouldn’t exactly call that “polite”. He continued that approach and the first time he actually asked for BSM schedules he simultaneously attacked it as “dishonest”. As for your point on “giving him a straight answer” then, as you should know, there is no “straight answer”. Different groups have different schedules. Only Amway would have an idea what they all are. What’s more, afaik none of the groups these days are “pin based”, ie “Emerald’s make $2 per tape”. It’s based on volumes, just like the Amway schedule. Different emeralds are going to be making different amounts. Even the same emerald will be making different amounts on different BSM depending on what downline payouts need to be made. An average emerald in the group I work with would probably be having enough volume to be getting paid 50 cents to a dollar per CD before payouts to their platinum are taken out. The average an Emerald makes on tools/tickets/speaking fees etc per year is less than $7000/yr. Compare that to the average Founders Emerald income from Amway of over $140,000/yr!










    1. Take some pressure off yourself, the deck is stacked against you in Amway. All that positive thought stuff is fine but they are just trying to keep you around longer to purchase more tools.

      1) As a non-Emerald/Diamond IBO you do not have access to the profits the leaders do. You will spend a lot of money on tools, and those tool sales of course come with profit which you simply don’t share in.

      2) Maybe you can handle #1 but you will also spend a lot of time inviting people into the group and they too will spend a lot of money on tools and yet again you will not share in any of the profit from these tools sales either. This one is the harderst one to come to grips with because you as an IBO will spend so much time trying to keep them excited because the thought of their success keeps your desire for riches alive. Nonetheless, after all that effort to keep the people you meet interested the leaders share zero tool profit with you.

      The biggest message they intend to drill into your head is that you can do exactly what they have done … but this isn’t the truth given you don’t have the same profit deal they have.

      As long as you realize the leadership supports a large percentage of their lifestyle’s from the profits of these tools sales than you should by all means continue.

      The business opportunity isn’t the same for you as a non-Emerald/Diamond IBO.

      PS- Drop the “God loves you” stuff, although that is true you shouldn’t exploit that fact to try and motivate people for the hope of personal profit…
      niether you nor anyone else in the world is doing Amway for God because if you thought there was no hope of big money you wouldn’t do it.

      You, like everyone else, are doing it for the hope of MONEY and that’s the simple fact of the matter.

      1. honesttalk12, your comments really make no sense. It’s like saying there’s no point building an Amway business because it’s stacked against you because Diamonds get a Diamond bonus which you can’t get. Well guess what, go Diamond and you can get the Diamond bonus. Same goes with income possibilities from tools/speaking fees etc. You have exactly the same opportunity – build a large enough business to be generating enough tool volume to qualify for profit sharing, then you can profit share. It’s simply wrong to say you can’t.

        1. How much do you spent on BSMs a month? How much in tool does your group run in total? How much of the profit do you get for all that tool volume? Zero

          The Amway sales pitch goes like this “make money back on everything you purchase” very simple. The bait and switch comes up when people are paying for; vmail, monthly memberships, major & minor functions, tools, CDs, Mp3s, Info Systems and various other BSMs… all the while you’re making no money on the things you’re purchasing.

          The hook of Amway is that you’ll get credit for everything you and your group purchases … not so with BSMs.

          These are big income streams for many of the Diamonds and most only focused on PV/BV as they were coming up in their business… meaning they didn’t have the BSM burden.

          1. The Amway sales pitch goes like this “make money back on everything you purchase” very simple.

            Actually that’s a “sales pitch” used only by some Amway groups, a significant number of whom got kicked out a few years ago. You don’t and never have made money by buying stuff, the very idea is clearly ridiculous.

            The hook of Amway is that you’ll get credit for everything you and your group purchases … not so with BSMs.

            Sorry, but that’s simply not correct. With Amway you don’t start getting volume bonuses until you reach a certain amount of product volume (personal and group). The same applies with BSM. Once you hit a certain amount of product volume (personal and group), you qualify for volume bonuses. The exact mechanisms very depending upon which BSM company you are with, but that’s essentially it.

            There were problems in the past with some groups doing lots of stuff under the table and not operating BSM compensation in a business-like manner, but Amway put a stop to that some years back with their BSM supplier accreditation program.

        2. Have you had a discussion with your upline diamond about the BSM profit sharing schedule you’re acting like exists? No, you know nothing.

          You don’t even want to answer simple questions.

          How much do you spend on BSMs? A lot.
          And how much profit do you make? Zero.

          Btw, so to you the Amway business isn’t about moving volume and getting credit for everything you purchase and what your group purchases … I’m all ears, what exactly do you thing the point is … to not run business volume?

          You’re deep in it mentally and wishing for the big payoff but it isn’t coming.

          1. For someone with a nickname like “honesttalk” you’re not very honest.
            (1) I not only have spoken with upline about BSM profit sharing, I have copies of the basic schedule.
            (2) I spend very little on BSM
            (3) I make a profit (yes, after BSM is paid for)
            (4) Running “business volume” is not the same thing as “make money back on everything you purchase”.

          2. The dishonesty I think is more important to discuss is the BSM groups because they don’t share this supposed BSM profit sharing schedule with IBOs when they start like the Amway Bonus schedule. They, you, sell the business as if the Amway bonus schedule is the only profit they build their lifestyles on. Not true.

            1) If you have the BSM profit sharing schedule … prove it, share it here … unless its a SECRET and you’re not allowed because they, you, need to continue the BSM Profit dishonesty.

            2) How much do you make a month in BSMs? How much do you spend?

            You can’t even answer simple questions or prove anything. You think your upline walks on water and they’re just scamming you.

          3. I still baffles me, the directives of anonymous bloggers and blog commenters. I don’t understand why anyone has to “prove” anything to them or to the rest of InternetLand.
            If someone is interested in talking to me, or any IBO, and is actually interested in having an open, non-attacking conversation, and willing to maybe, just maybe, think that there are many more sides than they see, I and other IBOs would be more than happy to share.
            But from my point of view, it appears that such anonymous bloggers and anonymous blog commenters, aren’t really interested in such a discussion. So, if in real life I would walk away from such people, why is that now allowed online? Why is that considered being dishonesty and dodging questions?
            Have people done unethical things in the world of Amway? Absolutely. And the majority have not. Period.

          4. Bridgett – are you talking to IBOfightback or me (honesttalk12) because I’m
            pretty sure both are anonymous names.

            When people make unsubstantiated claims about the profits they make by moving BSMs I think it’s a valid question to ask them to give examples. This is a huge deception in Amway (well, indirectly Amway because BSM are side business).

            So why would someone ask someone else to “prove” the BSM profit structure?
            Because it’s not told to anyone under Emerald level usually … which is exactly the point!
            It exists no doubt, the BSM leaders make bank on said BSM profits.
            What if Amway only shared the PV/BV schedule and profits with Emeralds and above?
            That wouldn’t work too well would?

            The BSM groups have setup a side organization with a side set of profits that new IBOs are not told about when they are encouraged to join someone’s “downline”. This half truth about the Amway leaders profits is just dishonesty so lets just call it what it is … a deceptive bait and switch.

            IBOs see the PV/BV schedule from day one allowing the BSM groups to deceptively hide
            behind that profit structure while raking in large percentages of their incomes from
            the BSM sales through the secret backdoor business.

            Keep in mind, I’m not the one making large profits the IBOs themselves don’t have access to so you’d be wise to place your largest concerns where they belong… the leaders scamming profits and not sharing.

            PS – it is sweet that you’re coming to try and help IBOFightBack, I guess it’s that obvious he/she isn’t doing a very good job making decent points. I know, I’ve been basically handing down a “shellacking” and should ease up on the poor guy/gal.

          5. This is a huge deception in Amway (well, indirectly Amway because BSM are side business).
            How is it deceptive? Isn’t it normal that when you buy something, someone profits? Wouldn’t it be unusual if that wasn’t the case?

            Because it’s not told to anyone under Emerald level usually … which is exactly the point!
            You are misinformed. Most (perhaps all) BSM companies today offer volume rebates and other income possibilities from Platinum level. Some groups have always done that. However, as Bridgett has pointed out, promoting this to prospects would be an illegal enticement to sign the Amway contract. Are you suggesting we should be doing something illegal?

            It exists no doubt, the BSM leaders make bank on said BSM profits.
            What if Amway only shared the PV/BV schedule and profits with Emeralds and above?
            That wouldn’t work too well would?

            The BSM groups have setup a side organization with a side set of profits that new IBOs are not told about when they are encouraged to join someone’s “downline”.

            Again, not true. The fact that people earn profit on the sale of BSM, apart from being obvious and normal business practice, is mentioned in the Amway contract and various other pieces of Amway literature and has been now for many years.

            Keep in mind, I’m not the one making large profits the IBOs themselves don’t have access to so you’d be wise to place your largest concerns where they belong… the leaders scamming profits and not sharing.

            Again, you are misinformed. BSM profit is available to all IBOs once they generate the business to earn it. Your complaint is like saying that people who only generate 50PV of Amway business don’t have the same profit potential as people who generate 200PV of Amway business, since they get no rebate.

          6. ibofb isn’t an anonymous blogger. It’s his handle, but his identity is known.
            It’s not a secret that people are making money off of the BSMs. If anyone with a little bit of math skills, and a tiny bit of knowledge as to how much things cost in this world, they’d know that.
            Regarding your comparison between the BSM schedule, and the Amway schedule, that comparison doesn’t make sense, because legally the BSM companies can’t share such a schedule to those unable to participate. Otherwise it would be “enticement.”
            In other words, the BSMs are there if the IBO wants them and finds them helpful. But if I were to show an IBO a plan for them to earn money if they purchase such BSMs, then I am enticing them to purchase, with the idea that they would be able to profit from such participation eventually.
            Just like my Upline makes money if I purchase a CD, they also make money if I purchase SA8 laundry soap. So just as I need to have some discernment and decide if my Upline is promoting a CD to use and abuse me, or if the CD has value to me, I would ask the same questions of SA8 Laundry Soap.
            The issue isn’t about the “evil” Upline. The issue is about IBOs taking responsibility and making informed decisions about what they are going to do with their time and money. It’s about being a grown up, and not handing over their brain once they become an IBO.
            Amway has a 100% money-back guarantee. And so do all accredited, approved, BSM vendors.
            For many people, the BSMs offer value to them. And this idea that someone’s making money off of them as a reason that they should cease to exist is idiotic. There are many people who find value in Double X. And there are critics who think it’s a complete waste of money and Amway’s is ripping people off by selling it. So, should Amway stop selling this whole foods, nutritional supplement simply because some think that Amway’s ripping people off?
            There are many BSMs offered that are not of value to me. So guess what? I don’t buy them. Just like there are many Amway products not of value to me. I don’t buy them. But the ones I do find value…am I not going to buy them because someone’s making money from them?

          7. This discussion is a process, but I think we’ve just about made it. You and IBOFB defend a secret practice that you don’t even profit in yet have justified away in your mind a basic concern a reasonable person will have (it’s seems like a version of stockholm’s syndrome, maybe not but that’s something you will have find within yourself)

            that concern is…

            If Amway worked so well (meaning product movement only), the BSM companies would sell their BSMs at cost or very little profit simply to encourage knowledge of the PV/BV schedule and build their people business that works the Amway PV/BV schedule as it’s sold.

            We have two main choices then:

            1) The Amway PV/BV schedule does work well enough to support the leader’s flaunted lifestyles but they’ve simply become greedy because they also want to sell BSMs at big profits …


            2) The Amway PV/BV schedule does NOT work well enough to support the leader’s flaunted lifestyles so they’ve come up with a side business of selling support materials at large margins yet continue to hide behind the Amway PV/BV schedule as if that alone was enough to support their incomes…

            In either option they don’t tell the new IBOs about the side business and leave it to their “little bit of math skills” in hopes that people don’t start to put the pieces together before they’ve encouraged them relentlessly to buy; Vmail, memebership, websites, CDs, Mp3s, infosystems, function tickest once a month, etc…

            Can’t you see that BSMs have become their own important side business and without this profit generating aspect of the business they don’t have their lifestyles?

            If it’s not a big deal, why aren’t regular IBOs just told about from the leaders that encourage them to join? Why the secret, how do you figure that’s not deception?

          8. honestalk12 said –
            You and IBOFB defend a secret practice

            It’s not a secret. It wasn’t a secret even before it started being specifically pointed to knew people because of the concerns of folk like yourself who seem to think BSM companies shouldn’t operate like … well, companies.

            If Amway worked so well (meaning product movement only), the BSM companies would sell their BSMs at cost or very little profit simply to encourage knowledge of the PV/BV schedule and build their people business that works the Amway PV/BV schedule as it’s sold.


            We have two main choices then:

            No we don’t. You may have your straw man, we have reality. All IBOs are informated about the fact that people (surprise!) make money selling them stuff.

            1) The Amway PV/BV schedule does work well enough to support the leader’s flaunted lifestyles but they’ve simply become greedy because they also want to sell BSMs at big profits …


            2) The Amway PV/BV schedule does NOT work well enough to support the leader’s flaunted lifestyles so they’ve come up with a side business of selling support materials at large margins yet continue to hide behind the Amway PV/BV schedule as if that alone was enough to support their incomes…

            Can’t you see that BSMs have become their own important side business and without this profit generating aspect of the business they don’t have their lifestyles?

            1. Please name an Amway leader who has promoted a lifestyle that wouldnt not be achieveable on their pin-level income alone
            2. Are you aware that in Achievers magazine and elsewhere, Amway explictly notes that lifestyles depicted may include income from other sources?

            If it’s not a big deal, why aren’t regular IBOs just told about from the leaders that encourage them to join? Why the secret, how do you figure that’s not deception?

            It’s not a big deal. They are told – even though they shouldn’t need to be. Someone making money off stuff you buy is kind of obvious ins’t it?

          9. honesttalk12,
            Have you ever been an IBO? Have you been an IBO who was part of a large LOA? If so, how long ago? I ask because it appears that you are speaking with some holes in your information.
            Income from BSMs is not a secret.
            In regards to depicting “lifestyle,” LOAs are very clear. Here is the verbiage included in photos and audio stories:
            “The success depicted in this profile may reflect income from sources other than Amway such as earnings from the sale of Professional Development Materials or other businesses and investments.”

          10. You say it isn’t a secret but niether one of you can produce any proof of any said schedule … you act as though your upline has discussed it at length with you but you know that isn’t true.

            You defend it because you believe someday all your time and money following your upline to every corner of the function earth and paying $100s a month on various tools will bring you the karma to be on top of the BSM pyramid someday. You hope.

            We all agree the diamond lifestyle can’t be supported by Amway PV/BV alone yet thats the only profit schedule you show your new people? Why do you do that when you already know it’s not enough. Bait & switch.

            New IBOs don’t have access to the profits that would make a difference in their own business so it’s not on the up & up.

          11. Did you know the United States has these secret military forces of over a million? It’s secret because they don’t tell me their troop movements! You’re being ridiculous, claiming something is “secret” because some details of it aren’t given to people when they are prospected – especially given to do so might very well be illegal, as has already been explained to you. What’s more I *do* have copies of the rebate schedule. I’ve even posted some of the details online a few times, it’s on my to do list on this site soon, as per a couple of posts back.

            While you wait in excited anticipation, I’d ask you to stop making things up. We do not “all agree the diamond lifestyle can’t be supported by Amway PV/BV alone”. I have *never* personally seen a “lifestyle” promoted that could not easily be achieved through the known average incomes of various Amway levels. What’s more, every single time I’ve asked someone like you to back up your claims in this area by simply providing an example, they’ve failed to do so, usually by doing something like naming a Crown Ambassador and claiming their lifestyle couldn’t be supported as a Diamond.

            Well duh.

            You however simply failed to answer the question at all.

          12. You can continue to dump your money into a business in which you don’t profit, that’s your choice. I was in your shoes before and I know that you don’t know anything that would be important to me.

            Remember that when you’re doing all the work encouraging 20 or more people to go to a function that costs them $100s each but all the profit goes to the BSM group leaders who didn’t do the work. They could’ve been spending it on products, PV/BV, which you do share profit in.

            BTW- I wonder when you’re actually talking to people about joining your “business”, you seem most interested in blogging … that certainly doesn’t bring profit into the BSMs so it isn’t a CORE activity.

            Have you asked for upline’s counsel regarding your work habit? That being chosing blogging over actual activity that brings more people into your business, and more people into their BSM business … which you do not share in nor really know anything about.

      2. You are such an idiot. Really you think they just want you to buy tools? Nobody tells you what you have to buy. You are 100% in control of what you purchase to help your company. I have never bought something I didn’t need. Plus, Amway has a 180 day money back guarantee-even if you returned it empty, they would still give you your money back. You stupid fool.

        1. The reason you didn’t make it is because of your poor attitude. The only way you can fail at this company is by quiting. Even as a pro-sumer, you save money on the things you would have bought anyway and the products are amazing!

          people, why would you ever take advice from the guy who sat on the bench and quit the team? Ask the winners, and mvp’s! That’s where the valuable information is!

          1. This poster is screaming paid disinfo. In fact many of the comments here are very clearly from people who are not being entirely honest.

            Honesttalk, thank you for raising actual concerns and promoting discussion. I’m not surprised you were jumped on by a bunch of sleeping “business owners”. It is very clear when a person is legitimately concerned about the structure / operations as opposed to regurgitating spoon-fed babble-talk with the hopes that one day they can be financially independent. With the more research I do the more I tend to agree — people don’t hit it that big with this “system” without becoming just a wee bit dishonest at the very least.

          2. So let me see – you post using no name and a fake email address, and then accuse others of “not being entirely honest”? While simultaneously praising a poster (honesttalk) who has been show again and again to be anything but “honest”. My unfortunate experience is that it’s the vocal critics who are the most dishonest. You’re not helping their cause.

          3. Not true Kristina, that is typical ibo arm twisting lingo. This is a valid question that must be answered. Using “winner” terminaligy may work in the night owls but not here in the real world. This “side business” is the scam…you are getting your money taken from you by pressure to go to every function possible and every tool necessary to succeed, and because you are so invested emotionally in this business and want upline approval you do it even though your friends dont see you anymore and your not making money…but those raking in this “side business” certainly are…

          4. I agree name…these guys are totally blind to reality. How can you get so brain washed and spoon fed crap for so long that you dont even think rationally anymore? LTD mp3s = brainwashed/ money wasters.

    2. Hi ROB:
      Seems to me that one of those NEW skills you still need to learn is how to write properly dumba$$.

      tought? actaully? annonymous? I guess Amway just needs to brainwash any idiot like you to keep their scam working.

      And stop typing in UPPERCASE it’s like shouting!!! Learn some damn netiquette! >:(

  46. What are the percentage of financially independent people in the united states? There is a reason its lower then 5% of the population and its because people with small minds who see this business as a scam do not have what it takes to make that kind of income. Plain and simple to be extraordinary you cant do ordinary things, amway bashers. If you don`t believe this just think of Thomas Edison who failed thousands of times on the light bulb before he actually made it work. I`m sure you quitters had that kind of drive…right?

    1. I agree Chris. I came across this blog as I too have recently been presented with this business opportunity with Amway and wanted to see what people are saying about it. It seems the majority of blogs etc are negative, though most of the comments & stories seem to be more centered on perceptions rather than actual fact.
      As IBOfb has mentioned previously, there are dodgy people in EVERY business. Just as there are people in every business trying to get you to buy additional extras (try buying a new car without the salesman insisting you need paint protection, which of course has to be re-applied every 12months at a ridiculous cost)
      The couple who introduced my husband and I are very successful IBOs and have since sold their security business as Amway was proving much more lucrative. They called us to ask if we were interested in a business opportunity, then on meeting in person were very open about it being an Amway business and showed us the products. We were told that you get out what you put in, if we wanted to work hard & learn the business we would get results, which is the same with ANY business.
      We have signed up for $80 and will test out some products & go from there. If we don’t like it we can return the products within 90days and cancel our membership with a full refund. How is that a scam?
      I am open minded and can see there is potential here for an extra income IF you are willing to work at it.
      I can’t understand the people who have issues with buying books/CDs and seminars to learn about the business – would you buy a retail shop without first learning about the products you are selling & how to market them?? We have had no pressure to buy any “tools” and our IBO gave us some copied CDs to listen to which are very informative for people in general not just Amway members.
      For all the small minded people out there, if you are foolish enough to believe you can make a 6 figure income with little or no effort you deserve to be scammed. Better just keep buying lotto tickets & good luck to you.

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *

This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.