Amway Success – What are your odds?

A common cry of the anti-Amway zealots is that the “odds” or “chance” of an individual being successful in Amway are low. They’ll typically look at some of Amway’s published statistics, such as the fact that in 2005, .0120% of “Direct Fulfillment IBOs of Record” qualifed at the Diamond level, and claim that your “odds” of going Diamond are 1 in 8333, so you’d be better off at Vegas, where your “odds” of winning on a single number in say, roulette are 1 in 29.

Oft-quoted anti-MLM zealot Jon M. Taylor, Ph.D., President, Consumer Awareness Institute, and Director, Pyramid Scheme Alert, for example, claims that –

The odds of winning from a single spin of the wheel in a game of roulette in Las Vegas is 286 times as great as the odds of profiting after enrolling as an Amway/Quixtar “distributor”

Amway is not a game of chance

A quick bit of math shows that Dr Taylor thus claims the “odds” of profiting in Amway are 1 in 8294. He calculates these “odds” based on numerous assumptions (for which I might add, he has next to no data to support), including what peoples expenses are. Now, for the purposes of this post I’m going to ignore these type of assumptions, but if they are correct (they’re not) then his “odds” might be a reasonable statistic to consider, except for one thing – unlike roulette, Amway is not a game of chance.

For many people, the term “odds” is most familiar in the area of betting and horse racing, so I’ll use an example from that arena. The Kentucky Derby is one of the world’s biggest horse races. The 2008 Derby had 20 starters, of which (ties aside), only 1 could win. What are the odds than any particular horse would win? Using the thought processes of anti-MLM zealots like Jon Taylor, they’d be 1 in 20, or 5%. In reality, bookmakers provided betting odds that ranged from 50:1 (2%) for Big Truck to 3:1 (25%) for the eventual winner, Big Brown.

Why aren’t the “odds” of winning the Kentuck Derby for each horse simply 5%, as Dr Taylor’s Amway assertion would have you believe? Simple – horse racing is not a game of chance. Bookmakers take in to account many factors in deciding whether a horse is likely to win, including past performance, track conditions, the weather, the jockey etc etc.

The same principles apply to the Amway business. The “odds” of your success vary dramatically based on a number of factors. The first factor is, of course, determining precisely what “success” is for you. For example, in their investigation into a proposed new business opportunity rule, the FTC said that MLM company Shaklee reports 85% of folk who join that company do so purely to receive products at distributor pricing. “Success” for a such a person would be placing an order and receiving it successfully!

If this was your goal in joining Amway (and it is for many people), what are your “odds” of success, using the methodology proposed by Dr Jon Taylor?

Goal: Buy Amway products at distributor pricing
Odds of success: 50% (Jon Taylor methodology)

50%?!?!? Surely everyone who registers with Amway as an Amway business owner gets their products at distributor pricing? Well … yes (UK&ROI market aside, which has a slightly different model) … however statistics revealed in the Team vs Quixtar dispute of 2007 show that only 50% of folk who registered with Quixtar ever placed an order after joining.

I’m sure you’ll agree though, that shopping from Amway/Quixtar is not a game of chance. There are things you can do to influence your success – you could for example, actually place an order! Voila – your “odds” have suddenly doubled to around 100%.

Dr Jon Taylor, Robert FitzPatrick, and other anti-Amway zealots such as “JoeCool” and “Rocket” would have us ignore not only what an individual’s goal(s) are, but also factors that influence that goal. Clearly this is a ridiculous and indefensible position. In Dr Taylor’s case, it’s a disgraceful one, as he is the holder of a Ph.D in Applied Psychology from the University of Utah. Having qualifications in psychology myself, I can assure you that you do not achieve a Ph.D. without a reasonable grasp of probability and statistics.

With regards to MLM statistics, Dr Taylor is either delusional or utterly dishonest.

There are things you can do to increase your odds

So what are the real odds of success in Amway for various goals, and what factors influence them? Well, clearly if your goal is wholesale price purchasing, then your odds of success are close enough to 100% if you place an order. Just as clearly, someone who joins and never even places and orders products is extremely unlikely to ever make any money. Indeed, I would suggest the probability of success for that group is 0%. Using this kind of information, just like bookmakers with horses, we can come up with “odds” that better reflect reality.

The 2008 Amway Global Sales Incentive Brochure reports for example that 0.3685% of North American IBOs qualify as Platinums or higher – that’s about 1 in 271. Yet we know that half of those 271 never even place an order, so their “odds” of reaching platinum were effectively zero. So …

If you place an order, your odds of being a platinum are about 1 in 135.

The TEAM vs Quixtar lawsuit in California also revealed that only 23.4% of Amway business owners ever sponsor anyone. While I’m sure there are folk who have qualified platinum purely on customer sales, without having sponsored anyone, it’s likely that the percentage who do so approximates zero. So …

If you sponsor at least one person, your odds of being a platinum are about 1 in 63.

Refining it further, the TEAM case revealed that only 12.9% of Amway business owners ever receive a bonus on downline volume. To receive a bonus you have to have a downline and at least 50PV of customer volume, plus be at a higher bonus bracket than the downline.

If you qualify for a bonus on downline volume, then your odds of being a platinum are 1 in 35.

Let’s put this in perspective. If all you do is join Amway and do enough to earn a bonus on downline volume, then already your “odds” of being close to developing a business earning $50,000K/yr+ (Q-12 Platinum) is approaching 1 in 35 – compare this to Dr Taylors simplistic claim that the “odds” of simply making a profit are 1 in 8294 (0.01%)

Clearly, earning a profit in the Amway business involves a lot more than simply signing a form and paying the registration fee, as Dr Taylor and others would have us believe. Taking action makes a difference! Indeed, the BERR vs Amway case in the United Kingdom revealed some even more astounding statistics –

  • only 6% of agents bought Amway products to sell on
  • 10% of agents make a profit

Leaving aside the fact this shows Dr Taylor’s claims re profit were out by a factor of 1000(!!!), it also reveals something else. It’s a reasonable assumption that those agents who made a profit included virtually all of those who onsold the product to consumers. If so –

if you have customers, then your “odds” of making a profit from an Amway business are approximately 100%

Amway is not a game of chance. It’s a business. Treat it as such and the odds of success are clearly very good indeed.

231 thoughts on “Amway Success – What are your odds?”

  1. The wonderful thing about Google is it does extremely well at what it has been made to,

    Find exactly what you are looking for!

    If youre looking for “reasons why Amway is bad” or “The truth about Amway”
    Ofcourse youre going to find bad things! Its what you bloody well searched for! duh.

    “All I did was buy product from the company, and got others to do the same” (random Emerald quote)

    Yup, that pretty much sums it up! Nothing illegal there lol.
    Do you see people getting outraged by someone telling them they should join Costco cause they can save money? Ridiculous!

    This isnt black magic, go do some proper research. Like talking to people who are ACTUALLY SUCCESSFUL in what you want to know.

    You dont go asking failed med graduates about rewarding careers in medicine because theyll probably tell you how terrible it is!!!

  2. Does anyone understand that based on the “Amway Lawsuit” of 1979, Amway may be operating outside FTC guidelines. Federal Government took Amway to court on the basis on it operating as a “pyramid”. With it’s deep pockets, and its ability to hire very expensive attorneys, they won the suit concerning the pyramid issue, based on a product being sold. They were also found guilty of two other charges, price fixing, and making exorbant claims of income. The courts ruled that Amway could continue doing business on the basis that the distributors sell at least 70% of the product bought to the general public. Some high ranking people in the organization has admitted that only 5%-18% in sold outside the company. The question is how long does it take for the FTC notice that their guidelines are being spat upon, and ignored?

    1. Peter, I’m afraid you’ve been conned. The FTC made no such ruling, this is what can only be termed a complete lie made up and spread by a number of MLM critics. In fact, in response to a query by the DSA, the FTC issued an official advisory a few years ago explicitly stating that the amount of “external consumption” was not relevant to the question of something being a pyramid. If you spend some time actually reading FTC vs Amway (available on AmwayWiki) you’ll see that the court was well aware that there was a large amount of personal consumption occurring. They had so little concern with this that they never even addressed it. The 70% rule you are referring to is with regard to inventory loading. It’s to stop people stocking their garage up with products in order to qualify for bonuses. The rule is that 70% of products ordered need to be sold, either to retail customers or to downline (who are wholesale customers), or used – including by yourself. I’ve addressed this earlier in Myth: 70% Retail Sales Rule

      1. Thanks for the reply. Actually, Ibofightback, we bought could be right on the 70% rule. There are a couple of interpretations by the courts. I refer you to an article written by Jeffery Babener, Att. at Law, entitled “The 70 PERCENT RULE AND WHAT IT IS ALL ABOUT?”

        As far as me being conned, I take that rather personal. In my opinion, in order to be conned, someone has to use deception in order to take something from me. Most all MLM companies use deception to conn people out of their hard earned money promising them the world knowing that only about 1% will ever be truly successful. I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and quote the success rate that some high ranking MLM companies have admitted to, and that is 2.9%. Better chance of winning at the casinos. Now, that’s being conned. Meaning no disrespect.

        1. Peter, you misinterpreted Jeffrey Babener’s article. What he pointed out (and it’s an old article, predating the FTC’s advisory letter) is that some attorneys general have interpreted the 70% differently. They are not courts. Don’t take my comment about being conned personally, you have some esteemed colleagues 🙂

          Now, you claim that “most all MLM companies use deception to conn people”. Could you back that up? And if you mention any companies, please note whether they are DSA members or not, and whether they are one of the top 100.

          As for “success rates”, and “better chance of winning at the casinos”, I suggest you might want to reread the article above again,

      2. True and easy way to understand the 70% rule. From the article “What is MLM?”

        With the 70% rule, you will have to sell 70% of the inventory that you already have, before you are allowed to take new orders. THE INVENTORY THAT IS PURCHASED IS DIRECTED TOWARDS INDIVIDUALS WHO HAVE NO INVOLEMENT IN THE BUSINESS BASED ON LEGAL REPRESENTATVES. Amway’s percentage is 18%, and former top Amway distributors say it is as low as 5%.

  3. Thank you for this discussion. As an IBO it helps to read logical thinking to reinforce my own personal belief. Keep up the good work.

  4. Anything which is not bring by the one’s job income. By Amway Business you will have it with a promise follow the system .

  5. I am with Amway for about 1 1/2 months. I am currently in the “educational stage” but I am very happy already on what is happening. In my four weeks in the business, I have already accumulated 200 pv. I am taking up MBA in Health and I am also a surgical oncologist here in the Philippines. I will certainly retire early (age 55? I am now 43). I am very excited with the CDs and books of Network 21. My upline are good mentors. I have already recruited friends as my downline. I am specifically targeting doctors as my downline. I know that this is hard work and may costs me thousands of pesos (teaching materials) but I understand that I need these and these are investments. I will be successful here.

  6. Hi there,

    I was in Amway from 2002-2005, and I can tell you without question that the reason I didn’t make the money I wanted was my own fault. Amway was great – I needed to develop the skills to develop a large network. The truth is that Amway distributors are more skilled at creating loyal organizations of people than any group of people I’ve ever ran into in my life, and I respect them for it more than almost any group of people in the world, even though I choose to pursue other options at this point in time.

    Sure, after 3 years of painstaking hard work I had a grand total of 2500 pv, but the fact is – I would have had more if I had developed greater skill.

    -David Wood

    P.S. one thought – although I understand the ‘roulette’ comparison, Amway diamonds earn a significantly higher income than the average person, so a more fair comparison would be comparing the odds of going diamond to the odds of any single person in the united states becoming a millionaire. Most adults set out with the intention of making more money than they do. For example, people with a net worth of a million dollars according to wikipedia are 0.62% of the population. Now granted, that’s still more of the population that are millionaires than diamonds, but diamonds have some pretty cool lifestyles.

    Rather than BASHING what the average person doesn’t do – why not commend the diamonds in Amway for becoming a 1 in 8333 kind of person? That takes some gusto.

    1. David

      Here we go again, a person blaming themselves for their failure in MLM. David, it was’nt you sir, it was the system. The whole MLM scheme is FLAWED!!!. I have 33 yrs experience in sales and marketing, and it’s easy for anyone with this background to see that by “Marketing Design” MLM is doomed to fail. Look at the numbers, they don’t lie.

      1. And Pete, I have 30 years experience as an entrepreneur, and it’s easy for me to see that MLM is a very smart strategy, with no “doomed to fail” any more than any other strategies. Your right, the numbers don’t lie, and they’re extremely clear on this point. It’s an enormously successful strategy.

        You’re starting to sound like a graduate of the Jon Taylor/Robert FitzPatrick school of MLM, with a fundamental misunderstanding of the model. Here’s the thing you need to understand – recruiting people is not the goal of companies, and IBOs, using MLM.

        1. You are wrong ibofightback, ask any body involved in MLM and ask them what their main goal is. Most all will say recruiting people, Why do you think those “rah, rah” meeting are held. Two reasons: To conn people out of their money, and to recruit people.
          The constant influx of people in and out is what keeps companies like amway afloat. When the recruiting stops most MLM companies fall like a stack of cards. If you are making it by selling product to the public, I commend you. But, ask yorself how many people do this. No uneducated person in sales and marketing could do this, or would do this. SELLING IS HARD! You are right, recruiting should’nt be the goal, but sadly it is just like in any other pyramid scheme. Qoute from an Emerald, at an Emerald meeting. “I just buy product, and ask people to do the same thing”. Based on this statement, how in the world can recruitment not be your main focus.

          1. Mr. Fiztpatrick and Mr. Taylor have saved many of people from the pitfalls of MLM, me being one of them. I have seen so many people following these false dreams of MLM to the point they have fallen into financial doom, and will never get out of debt. Proud to be a graduate of their school. At least I have vmy money and YOU don’t. More than that, I have my self-esteem from not conning my friends and relatives.

          2. If legitimate MLM actually worked the way Taylor and FitzPatrick believed it worked, then I’d agree with you. But ghosts don’t exist, and I’m not scared of them either.

            Never lost a friend or relative from MLM, made many many friends, and made money.

            You it seems however, are still scared of ghosts.

          3. I think you’re wrong in your claim about what people would say, but if any did say that, then they’re wrong too. The reason you recruit people is to help you achieve your goal of increasing sales volume and profit.

            Are you aware, Peter, that Amway in the UK suspended sponsoring for more than a year? Every month they continued to do millions in sales and the ABOs who helped generate it kept earning their commissions and bonuses.

            Are you aware, Peter, that Amway India reported that over 90% of their revenue comes from repeat sales, not from sales to new recruits? There’s no reason to believe it’s any different anywhere else.

            Are you aware, Peter, that I built an Amway business 13 years ago in another country? It wasn’t a large business, but it was profitable for me. There’s been *zero* recruiting in at least 11 years. Yet every single month for the past 13 years it has generated sales and profit. Every single month. No recruiting.

            Are you aware, Peter, that Amway requires IBOs in the US to have at least 50 points of retail customer volume every month, and if they don’t, they don’t earn bonuses?

            Take your 20-80 system. You need to speak to 100 people to make 20 sales. Speaking to 100 people is a strategy to get 20 sales. As a sales person you might want to consider speaking to 100 people as a goal, but it’s not the goal. The goal is to get the sales and make money.

            Anyone building a business and focused on recruiting as the goal is going to end up with a lot of people and no volume and no money.

            Again, how does asking people to buy product make recruitment your main focus (“focus” is a change in your earlier claim by the way)

          4. Ibofightback

            Can you do simple math? You already stated you were an expert on marketing. I’m sure you have heard of the 5-5-5 and so on. If you knew marketing design and multiply each level, it’s easy to see it is mathematically impossible to make money pass the 3rd level. Everyone at that level and below is getting screwed, and only people making any money are those at the top. Looks pretty much like a pyramid to me. I don’t think you understand what a pyramid is, and how it can be interpreted in the marketing arena. Of course the word pyramid is a no-no word in what you do, and you do a good job of hiding it by using other words.

            I would love to see you go up against Fitzpatrick or Taylor, they would eat you and anyone in your organization for lunch.

          5. Oh, I’d love nothing more than to go up against Fitzpatrick and Taylor. I’m willing any time. Live TV, whatever – bring it on!

            I never said I’m an expert at marketing, and no, I haven’t heard of 5-5-5 with regards marketing. Your suggesting of “multiplying” indicates you might be talking about MLM though – which just goes to show your whole thinking is still based on the idea that MLM=pyramid and that the goal is to recruit people. You have to let go of that misconception Pete, otherwise you’re just not going to understand the model at all.

            But let’s look at your next claim anyway – that it’s mathematically impossible to make money pass the 3rd level with a 5-5-5 model. That’s not true either! It gives 4 levels of profit-taking (including Amway). This is not unusual even in traditional business. Manufacturer->exporter->wholesale importer->retailer->customer for example gives 4 levels of profiting. Any manufacturer could have 5 exporters who each supplier 5 wholesalers who each supply 5 retail outlets. How is that mathematically impossible and nobody making any money?

            oh – and incidentally, that would “look pretty much like a pyramid” too … do you believe that traditional distribution is a pyramid scheme? Because drawing it out in a diagram would be pyramid shaped? Really?

            Pete, do you know what a pyramid scheme actually is and how it operates?

          6. To answer your comments about recruiting and why most organizations put recruiting before sales. Which by the way is against FTC guidelines. Now here’s the thing. I don’t know how much each distributor has to buy each month to qualify for comm, but let’s say it’s $100.00. Meaning distributors can RECRUIT AND MAKE MONEY WITHOUT SELLING ANYTHING. KEEP IN MIND MAJORITY OF PEOPLE ARE NOT TRAINNED IN MARKETING AND SALES WOULD REFUSE TO DO SO. Of course it depends on who you consider the end-user, and courts are now not considering the distributor the end-user. (people outside the organization) Try hard to understand this!

          7. (1) you’ve mentioned these FTC guidelines several times. Link?
            (2) Amway distributors don’t have to buy anything to qualify for commission
            (3) If you recruit without selling then you don’t make any money. Recruit 100,000 people, sell nothing, what’s your income? Zero.
            (4) Amway, and various BSM companies, offer training in marketing and sales to Amway distributors. It’s not easy and for most people it requires learning new skills
            (5) If a distributor is a legitimate end-user, they’re still an end user. Please provide links to evidence supporting your claim, I monitor MLM related court cases and have not seen this.

        2. Ibodogfight

          Amway not a MLM company? Sorry, have to bring up FTC again. Deep pockets always good for Amway!!
          To me paying $55,000 in class-action suit admits guilt. Sorry, I could not link this:



          1. FitzPatrick is getting himself in the paper, I’ll give him that. Have you read the FTC’s original proposed business opportunity rule? Have you read their discussion paper after receiving comments? Go and do it. That journalist probably should too, because clearly she didn’t. I have. Come back to me when you do. You’ll see the very good reasons why MLM was excluded, and how the FTC explictly stated they’d never intended the rule to cover this industry in the first place. Go read it.

            Have you read the class-action law suit mentioned? (you know – the one where the judge refused to accept FitzPatrick as an “expert”). Have you read the settlement? I have. Come back to me when you do. Then you’ll understand that Amway is saving money by settling. Entirely apart from the potential bad press even when they win (and they would have), the legal costs alone exceed what they’re offering in settlement. Indeed, the judge sent the proposed settlement back for reworking because it pretty much was all about paying the lawyers. Go read it.

            Last year my family settled a threatened lawsuit over a deceased estate. Why? Because every single lawyer we consulted told us that the threatened lawsuit was frivolous, it had no basis in law, and we would win – but it would also cost us more to fight the case than it would to just pay them to go away so we could get on with our lives. You don’t think that happens to companies too?

          1. Pete, I am following this conversation very closely, would you please be so kind to answer ibofightback’s questions?



          2. Bill, you are right. However, it has been a year and a half since this conversation took place. Oscar spoke for many of us. He was polite. He didn’t call names. We should all treat others the way we want to be treated. Enjoy your vacation.

  7. As much as your determination drives this business, just because you follow the plan of ANY business does not mean you are going to be successful. It is certainly a possibility to make money with Amway, but it’s not a guarantee even with determination.

  8. IBOFB though your post says that the Phd guys stats were not true tot he facts, i must say i didnt find much fact finding in your analysis also.
    In the end ur stated chance are some 1 in 35 at the best and its still not competitive to sitting on a table in Vegas with a roulette having 29 numbers.
    Though i must concur that the chances and % for achieving success depends on many factors in real life and i personally feel that business success depends on the business owner and not on the business.
    But still you haven’t stated the success road map for amway. Am personally not good at people tackling skills and sweet talks (even if its with correct figures and facts) and if i join amway, would depend mostly (say 90%) on sales that my website and/or retail store (which i may open after joining amway) generates. How in your experience and opinion would this business pave a road ahead for likes of me considering its mostly difficult to explain the reasons for high cost of products to customers on a website and also in a shop.
    Please do reply me.

    1. Nazgul, this is a business. Chance plays virtually no role. If you think it does, then I suggest you do not start ANY business. What facts do you disagree with in my analysis?

      As for the “success road map”, I’m not the one to ask. It’s a different road map for different people. If your plan is to setup a webshop and hope people come to you, then I frankly doubt you’ll have much success. As you say, you can’t easily and well explain the products benefits compared to the competitors. That’s essentially the role of the IBO, if you’re not willing to do it, then don’t expect to succeed in the role. Having said that, people skills are a skill, not a talent. You can learn them if you want to. IMO, they’re crucial for success in virtually all aspects of life, from relationships to jobs, to business. You might want to consider the benefits of improving in this facet! IMO Amway groups are some of the best in the world at teaching this.

  9. i recently joined amway. second month in business. And honestly i have a great team. i get the fact that to be successful in amway you may need to turn all your liabilities into assets. Even your time, friends, and words. the pricing is reasonable, the partner stores are credible. the discounts are awesome. The business is simple, but people are complicated. im currently working hard to dumb it down. lol.

  10. Those people who focus on “odds” clearly do not see the big picture.

    Unfortunately, business opportunities such as Amway/Quixtar attracts people who want to make money the easy because of the promises… and that is simply not the case. As with anything that has the potential to earn you a lot of money, you have to work HARD (make connections, talk to people, sell your products like your life depends on it, etc.). You have to have a game plan, otherwise you won’t make any money. Sell=profit… find atleast one person who is willing to work hard=profit.

  11. Holy crap what a bunch of whiners.

    Great article man.

    The people who say things can never be done should get out of the way of the people who are doing it.

  12. IBO Fight Back,

    This is a very well written article. I got bored reading through the first half of comments, but your article was a good read. Having advanced degrees in the Sciences, logic comes very easy to me, and there is nothing wrong with your logic, however i see no logic in the arguments. The methodology was fine.

    Your critics call your article a long explanation, but have clearly never seen what “long” is… Try having to prove an experiment worked, the 3,000th time.

    -UCLA expose

  13. I’ve been following this website for quite some time and I believe that Amway does work. I have heard about Amway since I was young, and married a man who was a member for almost 10 years, because he believed in the products (his first wife died of cancer and he was looking for good quality vitamins) and as a businessman, he also saw the opportunity and over the years, he had built a steadily growing network (retention rate 80%) and also, the income is inheritable (my 3 stepsons and their generations to come will benefit from this gift of perpetual income).

    I married him last year and refused to have anythng to do with Amway as I didn’t like direct selling or mlm and never believed that I could do it, but after visiting Vietnam, and seeing the business opportunity and how fair this business, equal opportunity regardless of whether you are young or poor, old or rich…and in Malaysia where I come from, we have many Diamonds, some of whom qualified at 26 years old and now I reside in Brunei…small population of 391,000 inclusive of foreigners. Despite this size, our business is growing faster than ever, despite the recession.

    Most importantly, having beginning to be active in this business since March 2008, I have myself personally put in about 60 people, and seen more than half making some income…which helps cover some of their vitamins cost and some even make extra income.

    One of my friends just lost his job last month due to the recession, and having joined our network 5 months ago, he has a small sum of Amway income every month since the last 3 months. It may not be huge income…yet…but it is money chasing after you, especially when you are down and broke and don’t have a job.

    We believe that Amway can help change some peoples’ lives, if only they try to do something about the opportunity. Yet, sadly, most sit still, do nothing and complain that Amway is a scam etc when they DIDN’T EVEN TRY. It’s just like going to university. If you don’t study, you may fail. In any business or in life, if you don’t work hard or put in effort, how can we expect results?

    With Amway, my family enjoys steady income, great health (we are 100% users), peace of mind, gained new friends and also, more time to share with our loved ones.

    This business works. My upline joined at 29 years old and retired at 31 years old. For the last 12 years, he has never worked (and he used to be a medical doctor in hospital – long hours…what good is earning tons of money when you don’t have the time to spend it…like in a conventional job?). He tells us….one of the most important benefits of this business…is that now, he has plenty of time to spend with his family. He saw his kids through delivery, goes on holidays whenever he likes (no need to wait for public holidays and peak seasons), and has since he first turned Emerald 12 years ago, been on every Amway holiday…5-star all the way.

    This is my opinion, and I will continue to build Amway and help others (those who believe that they want to do something with their lives and future) to help themselves. With Amway, I have also gained self-esteem and more confidence in myself.

  14. the business does work, you just have to get coached by people who have created an income and just do what they have done. It’s funny that the people who post complaining are the one’s that quit, it’s a choice if you succeed or not in this program.

    That right there is hard for people to grasp, it’s not that the business doesn’t work, you just didn’t work it.


  15. This has been a fun post, with a lot of great opinions. Here is my two bits: my Awesome upline teaches me that the 1st six months of consistent & persistent effort may yield nothing. We may not see ANY growth for the first while, but that 7th month goes “boom.” The Slight Edge (Jeff Olsen, author) teaches this very effectively–if one hasn’t heard of or read this book, I highly recommend it. It is the very tangible, daily things we are doing that will eventually show the results (ie. core, which btw have ten steps). We must soe before we reap (sp?) and I do know this: that most people get excited when they see this biz model, show all their friends & family and none of them “get in,” so they say it doesn’t work & they quit. They haven’t even had the fortitude to move from the JV team to the Varsity team, and it is sad; but it is human nature. It is too bad that those who we are the closest too, we listen to & believe the most–where they’d rather one not succeed, or move onto better themselves, so as to not make themselves feel so bad about themselves (if that makes sense.) I cherish my time with those in this business who’ve had success, to learn from them and gain the strength and knowledge I need to follow in their footsteps. It’s much better time & money spent than hearing all my “broke, derilect (sp) neighbors and friends talk about their financial geniuses over nascar, beer, barbeques and block parties! 🙂
    Thanks for all of your above posts..

  16. Way to be visioneering!!!!AS long as I’ve been in the business I’ve seen that the people who put in correct effort in the business have always got a result. A lot of people stay consistent and move to the higher levels and those who don’t stay where they are or fall back. It is like anything else, if you want success, you need to learn what to do and apply it properly..

  17. In my opinion, as Jeffrey pointed out earlier, a person can be involved in all the bells and whistles and environment of the business but aren’t actually doing the necessary work to move their business forward.

    And then the biz becomes a spectator sport for many IBOs/ABOs (and critics, as well). They are in the stadium, but not on the field.

    People get caught up in watching the “show”, rather than performing.

    For some people, that is all they want. They just like being around it all, but not really interested in performing.

    I appreciate the availability of all the resources. I just think IF we are looking to make money with the Amway Opportunity, we have to know when something goes from being a resource to being a distraction. And that’s different for different people. This is not a one-size-fits-all endeavor.

    So I believe IF we want to make money, it’s to evaluate when/if a resource goes from helping us build our business, to allowing us to deceive ourselves about just how much true effort we are putting forth.

    We all need to make sure we keep the main thing, the main thing. 🙂

  18. Yes, but the REAL question is then – what can be done to improve your “hit” ratio?

    In my opinion we have a very effective business system, but there’s still room to make it more efficient.

    There are for examples things you can do to increase “compliance” on things like gym attendance and diet programs. How can we increase “compliance” (Note to critics: It’s a research term, nothing nefarious meant by it) with Amway/system programs?

    1. I see where talking about FTC guidelines hits a sore spot. Easy to understand when most MLM companies don’t abide by them. And, you know why!

      1. Asking for you to actually tell us where to find these “FTC guidelines” is you hitting sore spot? Your refusal to answer the request I think says more ….

        1. Hey Idofightback

          Hope you are doing well. Can you tell me how much of Amway’s money is made off of training materials only?

          1. Hi Pete,
            In terms of profit Amway makes nothing on training materials, in terms of revenue, to several decimal places it probably rounds to about 0%. The training materials you are thinking of are probably those offered by third party companies, not Amway.

  19. rdknyvr,

    I think your answer would be the same reason why people join health clubs, pay their monthly membership, and never or rarely show up.

    Or, they do show up, but their work out is so lame, that they might as well go sit in a park, enjoy the fresh air, and eat a doughnut.

    The IDEA of being in shape is far more appealing than the reality and the WORK it would take to be in shape.

  20. If you’re worried about “training systems” then I think you’re jumping too far ahead. While the success rate of people who buy BSM (as opposed to put it in action) may not be that great, it’s way way way way better than the success rate of people who never buy BSM.

    1. Why do most people who join never place an order?
    2. Why do most people who join never participate in any training, even free stuff?

    then you can get to –

    3. Why do most people who participate in training/purchase BSM never put it into sustained action?
    4. Why do most people who put the training/BSM into sustained action never sustain it for long enough to reach higher levels?

    1. Training in MLM is the upline conning the downline out of money, and one of the reasons people in MLM never see a profit. Why should I pay you to train me, and the people I bring on board, to eventually buy product from you. YOU OR THE COMPANY SHOULD BE PAYING ME. Just another part of the scamm.

      1. Pete, why should I train you for free when I don’t make money from the people you bring on board, or make maybe a few cents out of the hundreds of dollars you make? Even you’re direct sponsor, whom you pretty much never would pay for training, makes far less from your work and sales than you do.

        No offence Pete, but most of your comments here seem to be in response to some kind of bizarre caricature of how Amway actually works. You don’t appear to understand the compensation plan, the marketing strategies, or the training systems.

        1. Talking about all the worthless selling materials (brochures , tapes, etc. If you are a Diamond, are you telling me this does’nt add to your income. Here’s what I’ve heard with my own ears. Upline tells downline you don’t have to pay for materials. Then once they start making money they contradict themselves and tell the downline you have to buy your own because you have to spend money to make money. Simply, BS.

          To be honest, I hold Amway in highest regards. It’s not the company that gives it a bad rap, it’s the distributors. Sad thing is Amway knows what’s going on, and they don’t do anything about it.

          Instead of going through all this mess one statement sums it up. “IF YOU ENJOY CONNING YOUR FRIENDS AND RELATIVES OUT OF MONEY, GO FOR IT.”

          Meaning no disrespect, but I have my doubts that you are a Diamond. I think I read someplace where you were, if not I offer my apology. (less than 1/2 of 1%) Should have bought you a lottery ticket the day you became Diamond. Why waste your time on this site, why are’nt you out there spending your big bucks. My excuse is I’m retired, and earned it the hard way, not by scamming people.

          1. Pete,
            (1) How much different training material/seminars from how many different BSM companies do you have experience with, such that you can brand it all “worthless”?
            (2) Yes, Diamonds may make money from the sale of this material. Tell me Pete, how much does a Diamond make from the sale of Amway products through a distributor two platinums in depth? Do you know? How much do they make from the sale of Amway products through a distributor one platinum in depth? And here’s a really important one to answer – how much does a Diamond make from the sale of Amway products through a distributor not in their downline at all?
            (3) Upline is *required* by Amway to tell you that you don’t have to buy training materials. That doesn’t mean upline won’t recommend that you do. Any decent upline will also lend you materials if you can’t afford it, until you can afford it. But it’s a business, not a charity, businesses should buy their own materials, not expect someone else to pay for it.
            (4) if you conning your friends and relatives out of money, then for god sake stay away from MLM. You’re going to fail at it and damage it’s reputation on the way.
            (5) you don’t have to doubt I’m a Diamond, I’m not, and never claimed to be. Even though not an active Amway distributor I simply got sick of reading the kind of myths, misconceptions, and outright BS about Amway that you’re repeating here and I had the time and resources to do something about it, so I did. It’s a hobby.

        2. Hey Ibodogfight

          Fitzpatrick and Taylor, and others will bring you down some day. I understand this day may not be too far off. Going to be interesting. I know a little bit more of what’s going on than you do. I want you to eat your CROW on the stepps of the Capital of Louisiana. Buy you a beer afterwards!!

        3. I have never worked for a major coorporation where they charged for training materials. At other companies internal conferences and training programs and materials are provided free of charge. Why do you charge for these conferences and for for audio and videotapes, etc? Is this just another revenue source for the company,and/or for the upline. Don’t tell me you don’t make money off this, several former Diamonds have already admitted it. But, I can take more deception.

          1. Pete,

            Amway employees don’t pay for this stuff either. Amway IBOs are not employees. Have you ever been an agent for a company, or a franchise owner? I have, and in both cases as an independent business owner, the companies I represent *do* charge for conferences, training materials etc.

            As it happens, Amway does give this stuff away or at cost. What you’re most likely talking about is materials sold by other companies. If you work for IBM and decide to say, buy a management book from to improve your knowledge and skills, would IBM pay for it for you?

            It’s normal that a company I buy stuff off makes a profit from it. I frankly find it bizarre that many people, like you, think it’s strange. Amway has responded anyway and years ago started pointing out the obvious on the registration forms and much of their marketing material, and requiring accredited suppliers to even put it on their CDs and material.

            So much for “deception”, Pete.

            Strangely, when I buy a book from Amazon, there’s no disclaimer warning me that Amazon and the publisher and author might make money from my purchase! The horror ….. :-/

  21. Thanks TWS, I was thinking, in part, more along the lines of being more careful, and do more screening of who we end up sponsoring. Some people will never know if they have or can develop the motivation and vision to build their own business until they try. Others could never do it in a light year’s worth of Sundays, but they are looking for an “easy” way to get a business/money (ie. no effort) and they should be screened out at the beginning. They are often the ones who end up with the cockroach/critic stories… per some above… shine a bit of light on them and they scurry away.

    However, I’m not entirely content to leave it to the so-called “sharper minds” working behind the scenes, some of whom still may have an unexamined conflict of interest regarding which business is more important to them… Amway Global or a training system. One still sees a lot of the old assumptions not being re-examined… the old saying, ‘if you keep on doing what you’ve always done but expecting different results’ is the definition of ___. Same with thinking… keep on thinking, or failing to innovate in your thinking even around business building approaches, and there is the risk of building the old flaws into the new ‘transformed’ business… maybe the “new wine in old wineskins” analogy fits.

  22. rdknyvr, great question. And certainly could have its own blog site to answer it.

    But to over simplify it. I’ve always seen this industry as being simple, not necessarily easy. If you want more of the general public to “stick with it”, you’re gonna have to make it easier.

    Than the question would be, can you make it TOO easy. I think so. One of the greatest things I’ve seen with this business is far beyond the financial rewards, but rather, who you become through the process. And if the process is too easy, you elimante some of the need for personal growth and development in order to be successful.

    Thankfully, there are alot of sharper minds than me working behind the scenes with the transformation that understand this balance and have a passion for what this business is and can be in the future.

  23. John,
    Go ahead and post the following:
    Full Name
    Mailing Address
    Birth Date
    Social Security #
    Mothers Maiden Name

    And I’ll send you a copy of my Tax Returns for the past 6 years along with a copy of the $20,000 achievers check due to arrive in 11 days. (Not that I’m counting) 🙂

    Sounds pretty silly doesn’t it???

  24. I agree, but playing the devil’s advocate, the question arises as to whether this is an inherent part of human nature, and we can’t change it, or it is something to do with techniques/approaches/strategies, and we can improve it.

    Probably worth starting a thread on AmwayTalk to discuss this.

  25. IBOFB, I agree with you, that success here or anywhere else has absolutely nothing to do with “chance,” “luck,” or “odds.” As you, WWDBKevin, Visioneer, and others point out, it does come down to choosing to be successful and doing the required work — in any activity, not just a direct sales business such as ours.

    The question that has not been effectively addressed by any side, however, is why so few who register a direct sales business — and this is true, by the way, for many direct sales businesses, not just Amway Global — continue on to put in the required consistent effort to achieve the level of cashflow they deem to be “success” for their purposes, whether at Platinum or higher, or at some net cashflow positive sub-platinum level.

    This is still an area that needs to be explored and “transformed” and it won’t be with words on a blog, but by builders who set out to understand the problem and define an approach and training that will facilitate a shift in individual business’s growth and success. That is a “problem/opportunity” in our marketplace waiting to be solved.

  26. Amthrax,

    I appreciate your criticisms as you are very reasonable to converse with. However, I have personally found that doing the work and following the mentorship of my upline provides results. I have not reached the Platinum level yet, but I have 10’s of thousand of dollars in the bank from my business, I have a nice profit at the end of every month, I’m almost debt free, and a have a large investment portfolio (although its been shrinking lately 🙁 ). My wife works part-time and we’re looking for her to be free from her job next year.

    Part of “doing the work” is learning from your mistakes and continuuing to work at getting better. This business is an art, based on a science. If you show 10 plans you should sponsor 2-4 people. However, if you have terrible people skills you probably won’t sponsor anyone. You’ll have to work on yourself to improve your sponsorship rate. So part of “doing the work” is getting advice and actually listening to it and then folowing through. I’ve seen too many people try it for a few months, then give up. I know they are selling themselves short. They put in too little effort, for to short a period of time before the give up on themselves.

    That’s why reading is so important. I am a part of a large church that has grown fairly quickly in the past 10 years. Our Pastor is very well respected and he is an awesome leader. He reads an average of 3 books a month! He is at what some people would call a pinnacle of success, yet he still works at improving himself daily.

    I am probably the most average of anyone who has ever built this business. I am not smarter than most people, I am not the “motivational speaker”, I am not a gifted communicator, I wasn’t born with a high leadership quotient.

    But, I am very happy I decided to follow the advice of my upline and kept working at my business!

  27. Every time I’ve seen a survey done of people who have truthfully done our “core” steps every month for the previous 6 months, they’ve virtually all been silver and above. QED.

    Very very very very very few people do “core”. Just yesterday I was listening to an MP3 of a new Double Diamond, he said of the people in the seminar where he was talking (already a highly self-selected group), he’d estimate from his experience about 5% were core the previous month – and that’s just for one month! Every time I’ve seen “core” recognized in a large meeting, the numbers have been much the same.

    N21 “Vital Signs” and WWDB “parameter” statistics show that any given time about 10% of IBOs attend seminars. 5%*10%=0.5%. So only 1 in 200 do Core even for the one month!!!

    Be honest – if only 1 in 200 do it for just one month, how many do you think do it every month for 2-5 years?

        1. No, but I understand the difference!!DO YOU!!!! It’s impossible to measure success with all the deviation from the truth most MLM ers use. Amazing to me why you people are ashamed to use the companies name when presenting the plan . I tell you why, because anybody intelligent will run. How can you sell anything when you are ashamed of the company you work for. Ok, let’s hear your BS on this one!!!

          1. Did you really just use the phrase “you people?” 🙂
            And did you really just make a sweeping generalization that the millions of folks who are Amway distributors/IBOs/ABOs, show the business plan and approach people the exact same way? 🙂

      1. Bridgett

        Nothing cute about being conned. I just know all the times I had been told about a bus. opp. only to find out it was Amway. I would just get up and walk out feeling stupid. You may not use that approach, and if you don’t I commend you.

        An another point you made about people not showing income in Amway, if you tell me you made say 100,000, and very few do, you better be prepared to show me, or you can stick that 6-6 whatever thing in your ear.

        1. You were invited to see a business opportunity, and if you were shown Amway, then you were shown a business opportunity.

          If someone tells you they earn a certain income as part of their pitch, then yes they should be prepared to back it up if you ask.

          Long term success in MLM requires integrity even more than in traditional business. You’ll notice there’s a number of supposedly successful MLM “leaders” who are regularly jumping from one company to another. That to me is not evidence of long term success. In Amway on the other hand we have businesses where the founder has died and a trust continues to operate and receive profits from the business. There are other Amway businesses now looking at getting handed over to the fourth generation of a family of IBOs.

          You really no very little about Amway, Pete. As veteran reporter Mike Wallace (60 minutes) said after spending a year investigating Amway – “they’re classy people”.

        2. Peter,
          The next time someone invites you to look at a biz opportunity, ask them, in a neutral tone, “Is this the Amway Business Opportunity?”
          That’s all ya gotta do.
          It’s a great business. And it’s available to pretty much anyone with a heartbeat. That’s the blessing and the curse–a lot of folks with no business sense or people skills or even sometimes ethics, can start an Amway Business. They won’t last long (unless they change) but can do some damage along the way.
          Don’t confuse the business opportunity nor the company nor most IBOs, with a few bad apples you seem to keep attracting.
          It’s a big Amway World out there! 🙂

  28. You seem to have missed the fact that chance has nothing to do with it, and that we haven’t even yet got *close* to working out the statistics for people who do what is recommended.

    Do what is recommended is exactly what the System leaders teach from stage. The 5 steps to success. The 9 CORE steps, etc., etc. The reality is you can do all of those steps and never get to Platinum, Emerald, or Diamond.

    When I wrote, “this business will build itself if you would only do the work” that’s paraphrasing what the leaders were saying from stage.

  29. John,
    We are going to be a 100 billion dollar business; the timeline for when that happens is irrelevant. I love that the leaders of World Wide and Quixtar/Amway Global are optimistic and looking towards the future, that is how you grow a business. Do you think Bill Gates ever predicted huge growth bigger than what Microsoft has become? Of course that is why he is a visionary, all great leaders are.

    I am successful in the corporate world and I have yet to meet a self made millionaire who was skeptical, critical, and “realistic” in their future growth.

    For you John to sit back from the outside and pick that statement apart has no merit to someone building the business. Get in the fight or go home and do nothing, that is your only 2 options. I choose to get in the fight and it sure has paid off.

  30. I would argue that the majority of leaders were making this claim.

    Argue it all you like – have you got any evidence to support this claim? Again though – so what? People all over were making ridiculous claims about dotcom businesses. I said at the time the claims about Quixtar were silly, and I said it about other businesses too. Somebody making silly claims has no bearing at all on whether the business model is any good or not.

    A 1 in 35 chance is still just 2.9%.

    You seem to have missed the fact that chance has nothing to do with it, and that we haven’t even yet got *close* to working out the statistics for people who do what is recommended.

    this business will build itself if you would only do the work

    it will build itself if you would only do the work …????? Huh? Does that make sense to anyone?

    1. Anytime you are involved in sales and marketing, it MOST CERTAINLY INVOLVES CHANCE. Ever heard of the 20-80 system. The more people you approach, the better CHANCE you have of closing. And, you can interchange the word chance for odds.

    2. If concerned about stats that pertain to the Amway Stats, go to an artical authored by a”Bradly Orner” Tells all the true and the exact numbers those at Amway can achieve. “not much”

      Must be truth Idofightback aka, DAVID, who invested 15 yrs of your life in Amway and made what amounts to nothing. Oh, this comes from the 4400 info. book put out by Amway. In my opinion, you and Bridgett are nothing but frauds. Found out a lot more info, too.

      1. Pete,
        Did you just call me a fraud? Anyone can click on my name and go to my website. There is a tab call “About Bridgett” which gives full disclosure of who I am.
        How about you, “Pete Cole?” Who are you?
        You wanna go to guns with me about honesty and integrity? Bring it.

      2. So in the same post he accuses others of fraud, he just makes s**t up! Pete – I invested less than 2 years, part-time, in to my Amway business. I made a good profit and 12 years later I’m *still* getting paid from that work. Please, show a little integrity instead of just throwing mud.

        AS for “Bradly Orner” … you’re citing a webpage “analysis” from nearly 20 years ago? Really? Check your calendar Pete, it’s the second decade of the 21st century. I didn’t read Orner’s stuff fully but I saw one thing that meant it can be dismissed as a sensible analysis immediatelyy – he counts personal product purchases as a business expense. Try getting that one past the IRS!

        If he was purchasing products he did not need or want in order to qualify for bonuses, then claiming them as business expenses, then Mr Orner was (a) defrauding Amway to earn commissions he did not deserve (b) defrauding his upline through stealing commissions that should rightly have gone to them (c) defrauding the US government and US citizens through submission of false tax information.

        That’s the kind of source you want to use to accuse others of fraud?


        1. If idofightback and Bridgett would take A few minutes “TO THINK ON THER OWN AND NOT LET THEIR UPLINE CONTROL THEIR MINDS AND SOULS EVERY WAKING HOUR, THEY WOULD SEE THE POINTS OF JOECOOL, AND WHAT he IS TRYING TO ACCOMPLISH.’ I admire the guy, he seems to have courage unlike you and Bridgett who deviate from the truth and try and deceive people. Whatever Bradley ohner’s stats were they have nener changed. Still 98.9 loss rate no matter how you look at it Of course you will have you’re own deceptive and false ideas. MLM where products disguish the pyramid is the worst and most disgructive kind

          1. Pete, I’ve spoken to my upline maybe twice in the last 3 years. And you somehow think their “controlling” me? Good grief man, get a grip. You’ve clearly become obsessed with this topic and are simply not thinking straight. Orner’s stats have never changed? Well of course they haven’t – they’re essentially made up assumptions! In the real world though, even the figures he does use that are accurate have changed dramatically in 20 years. Prices have changed. Bonuses have changed. New incentives have been added (Fast Track is particularly of interest for assessing profitability of new IBOs). Technology has changed, and affected costs of doing business. Etc, etc, etc.

            Yet you’re so obsessed with grasping on to your received ideology that you’ll make ridiculous assertions like “they have never changed”.

            If you continue to come on here and simply abuse people then you will no longer be welcome, OK?

          2. “Pete,”
            The more you write, the more you show your ignorance.
            And since you have nothing to lose (you’re just a made up name on a computer screen, with zero accountability) I’m not surprised at your total lack of character and integrity.

  31. Being an IBO who would be a part of that $100 billion, I can say that I only have to look in the mirror and see one reason the company didn’t go to $100 billion.

    I am not responsible for the other hundreds of thousands of IBOs in North America. But I am responsible for myself.

    And I take responsibility for my part and my lack of effort for not making the company’s sales larger than what they are.

  32. Unfulfilled promises of growth in the dotcom world weren’t exactly the unique provence of a handful (note: handful out of thousands) of Quixtar leaders.

    I’d like to dispute your claim that it was just a handful of Quixtar leaders making this claim. I would argue that the majority of leaders were making this claim. You seem to ignore how communication gets transferred in these organizations… from the top down.

    The majority of the INA leaders were all saying the same thing back in 1998 about Quixtar becoming a $100 billion dollar business. If the major leader of an AMO says it, you can bet all of the downline leaders will be duplicating it on stage, in team meetings, and Amvox.

    Us critics who were last active decades ago were right there when Quixtar was being launched and can attest to these claims. If a minor AMO like INA would be promoting Quixtar as a $100 billion business, you can bet that the likes of Britt, Yager, Foley and other kingpins were saying the exact same thing.

    Are you claiming that if some Diamond out of thousands makes a prediction that later turns out to be wrong, that means the business somehow doesn’t work? Seems a bit of a silly approach to life to me.

    The business has and does work for some people, but is it working for you? A 1 in 35 chance is still just 2.9%. I don’t know about you, but that’s still a pretty low percentage to me. What about the other 34 people? If they’re not Platinums, what are they? Some might be 1000s, 2500s or 4000s, but I bet a lot of them are scraping by at 100PV or even lower.

    Obviously, I’m not going to stop anyone here from building the business, but I caution people in thinking that this business will build itself if you would only do the work. While that sounds nice on paper, it like the 6-4-2 circles, doesn’t always work out in reality.

    Just my thoughts on your stats and percentages, IBOFB. As always, feel free to ignore if you don’t agree.


    1. what percentage of people make a 6 figure in any industry? 2-5% across the board…so what your saying is you dont like the odds of making that income in ANY industry not just Amway. Thats not what i would teach my kids ” dont try to be an astronaut the odds are far to high against it” “Dont try to be president the odds are you wont be” pure idiocy….in that way of thinking….

  33. Unfulfilled promises of growth in the dotcom world weren’t exactly the unique provence of a handful (note: handful out of thousands) of Quixtar leaders.

    Are you claiming that if some Diamond out of thousands makes a prediction that later turns out to be wrong, that means the business somehow doesn’t work? Seems a bit of a silly approach to life to me.

  34. WWDB Kevin,

    According to Ron Puryear and Greg Duncan, Quixtar was going to be a $100 billion business 3 years ago. And yes, I can provide the source of their statements. So who is telling you how much this business is going to grow and are you sure you want to trust them? Also, success for Amway Quixtar owners (Devos,VanAndel) doesn’t translate to success for you or the millions of others who have been decieved by the likes of Puryear and Duncan.

  35. Freedom,

    Your last sentence correlates with a story I heard once. When an IBO asked his friend when he could see the plan, the friend said “let me check my schedule”. Then he pulled out the TV Guide schedule!

  36. Great logic and systematic approach to a very irrational question in the first place. Think and act like a business person and your chances of profitability are 100%. To address the opposition posts, I am a Silver Producer who has been very profitable for many years from a base of business that put together in my first couple years in the industry. My income has been very passive when considering the 5-10 hours per month I have been allocating over the past few years.
    The issue to think about for those that do not continue their investigation after reading this post, if you are looking for a reason to not get started that is what you will find. BTW, in my experience the only thing these individuals ever start after passing on this opportunity is the TV, their XBOX, a bowling league or something else that does nothing to add value the ther future.

  37. To Not Joining Now:
    The simple fact is you live in a Free Enterprise society and you have the right to build this business or not, period. The problem that most of the 3 million Ibo’s around the world have with critics like yourself is that you decline the business and spend the rest of the time backing up your decision with negative.

    The Facts are Amway/Quixtar are over a 7 billion dollar debt free company and we are going to do 8 billion next year. We are #1 in North America for Health and beauty and the #1 affiliate partner for Circuit City and Barnes and Noble.

    Let us know why you decided to get over it and then move on my friend. Since you have zero experience in this business your posts have no validation. Thanks.

    WWDB Kevin

    1. I agree with you Kevin!! How can people judge if they haven’t even really tried this business, or when some people get in and then they give up before even trying to do what is taught… WWDB and Amway Global give you all the tools you need to become successful, is a shame to see people throw it all away- This is my family’s and a lot of other families only hope in this falling economy……

      1. Agreed as well – I’m not in Amway, failed at it for 3 years – and now I am a top income earner in 2 other companies.

        I ABSOLUTELY DO NOT BLAME AMWAY for failing at it – in fact, the education I received from Amway has aided me in creating a little over $350,000 in the last 12 months (in other businesses).

        People need to get off of a high horse.


  38. Visioneer,

    I know you will make Platinum and beyond. You have a healthy First Circle and will be able to help others make money, because you are making money.

    Keep up the great work and keep your eye on the goal!


    1. Bridgett

      A quote from an Emerald from an Emerald meeting. “All I did was buy product from the company, and got others to do the same”. Not one word about “retailing”, and I believe this is against FTC guidelines.

      1. Pete, (a) why are you assuming “got others to do the same” does not include retailing? (which I assume you mean non-IBO customers). Retail customers of an IBO can order direct from Amway and have the products delivered to their door (b) context?

          1. No, MLM is not selling, not product anyway. Neither is employing sales people. They’re strategies. In the first case though, you’re “selling” a business opportunity, and in the second you’re “selling” a job opportunity. In both cases (if it’s a commission sales job), you won’t make any money unless you sell stuff though.

        1. IBO (Independant Busuness Owner)- Want to refer you to an article “Stay Away From MLM” by Luke Setzer. It will explain to you why you are not even close to owning your own business.

          1. Can we send that article to the IRS when they want to charge as tax as business owners? Are they (and every other tax authority) aware of this amateur web page by the unknown Luke Setzer and it’s great importance? Good grief Peter. I think you need to go study up on confirmation bias.

          2. You know what the truth is, and as intelligent as you appear to be, your post on IBOs is nothing but pure BS. Sometimes if not most, it gets down to pure common sense. It’ hard to communicate with people who have been “brainwashed”, and are experts at “brainwashing ” others to the point it looks and feels like a “cult”. Why do MLM people frown upon pople with open minds. That seems to threaten them!

          3. Open minded people are more than welcome. Most times when people claim someone isn’t open-minded it means “they don’t believe what I believe and actually want me to support my claims!” Same thing comes from the woo-crowd promoting homeopathy and psychic powers. Ask them for evidence of their claims and they say “you’re not open-minded!”. I’m a scientist. Scientists are extremely open-minded. We just don’t like to fill our minds with crap that isn’t supported by evidence.

            Most of FitzPatrick’s “Ten lies” are either ones he made up (straw men) and then attacked, or outright lies which he then attacks.

            Some “professional”.

          4. And, Ithink you and every one else need to read and study (Yahoo) “The Ten Lies of MLM” by Robert Fitzpatrick. If you open up your mine and listen to a real expert, you may learn something. This is someone who would not lower himself and be on a site just to try and intimidate people. He is a true professional.

          5. Ibofightback

            Speaking of unknowns!! WHO ARE TOU!! Fitzpatrick trys to protect people from the horrors of what you do, scamming people out of their hard money feeding them the lie about the big “fish” is just around the corner. Or, stuff like how can you expect to drive that new Mercedes, or live in that big house, if you don’t go to those “rah, rah meetings and spend tons of money on hotel rooms, food, and that junk you call trainning materials. I knew an Emerald, and even at that level he was still in the hole from the stuff just talked about. You know how you make your money, it’s from the poor souls at the bottom of your downline that fails each month and keeps feeding you that 100.00 mt. thinking that big fish is coming, only to find out it never does. How do you morally do that? If this is important,I am a scientist like yourself (pharmaceuticals), but today , I am ashamed of my profession. When you are on National TV, and in National newspapers, instead of on a website with uneducated people in MLM, then maybe people will listen and respect you like most do Fitzpatrick, Taylor, and other consumer advocates. Just remember, if you will open up your mind long enough, 99% of people can’t be wrong. Your a scientist, figure that out 1% successful, 99% failure. Gee!! If you want respect you need to get off the comupter and try find other avenue to make your points. I challenge you. If you can set up a debate with Robert Fitzpatrick with a independant mediator,I will donate 10,000 to the charity of your choice. I promise, he will laugh at you!! I now retire from this site, because you are making it a joke, and I am starting to disrespect myself for even getting involved. Enjoy living in 3 countries, owning 3 businesses. Yeah, like I live in 5 countries and own 10 businesses. LOL

          6. Pete, the !% “failure rate” is a lie. It’s made up. I suggest you go to and get some real statistics. You’ve basically fallen for all the stereotypical myths. Like most myths they have some basis in truth, so yeah, over the 52 years and millions of people who have given Amway a try, some of them have been what I would consider less than ethical. Read Amway is not a scam but you can still be scammed for more on that.

            Amway is bigger than you think. Waaaayyyyy bigger than you think. There are literally thousands of continually re-qualifing Diamonds and above and thousands more who have qualified at the level at least once. There are tens of thousands of platinums. There are millions of IBOs, and probably tens of millions who have given it a go over the years.

            And how many complaints are there about Amway? On the internet, from people with actual experience, no more than a hundred or so. Officially to organisations like the BBB or FTC? Virtually none. The FTC explained that one of the reasons why MLM was excluded from the new business opportunity rule was that there were so few complaints about legitimate companies like Amway and other members of the DSA. A few years ago The University of Westminster did a global survey of attitudes towards direct selling and direct selling companies, including Amway, do you know what they found? People with actual experience of direct selling companies, either as members or customers, overall had positive views of the industry.

            The people with negative views were folk like you whose opinions seem to have been formed primarily via hearsay.

            Tell me Pete, how many Amway products have you tried?

            Oh … and I don’t appreciate you making false accusations against me, indeed publicly defaming me. You have no idea what I do. It’s not what you claim, that’s for sure.

        2. Hey Ibofightback

          I truly hope you are having a good day! Per one of your post concerning Amway’s products, they are GREAT with the exception they are over-priced. And, I guess that is due to having to pay so many different levels. I have an article, really a book you can download. Sorry, my computer will not link at this time. GO TO YAHOO, AND TYPE IN THE ADDRESS BOX, “THE TRUTH ABOUT MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING”. Warning, you’ll see someone’s picture you are not fond of. Truthfully, let me know what you think. Even if you don’t agree, makes for good reading.

          1. I’m having a great day Pete. I hope the same for you.

            Which products do you think are overpriced?

            I tried the yahoo search, but not sure what “article” you are referring to. If it’s Jon Taylor’s screed then I’ll be addressing it in an upcoming blog post.

          2. Ibodogfight

            I honestly don’t know which products, Amway has a ton If was mainly just a guess based on my marketing experience. Sort of like when a product travels from the manufact. to the retail outlets. I beleve that’s how Sam Walton made his fortune. Correct me if my thinking is off. This may shock you but, I actually have stock in Amway. So, keep on selling. LOL Yes, Jon Taylor Is the key author on the article. I will try and get a link to you, as soon as I can find what’s wrong with this darn computer. Think just has too many miles, just like me.

          3. Your declaration that Amway products are overpriced, is a guess based on your marketing experience?
            That doesn’t make any sense.

      2. Hi Peter,
        I didn’t notice until now that you address me about a random emerald and a random quote.
        I don’t know who said this, I don’t know when, I don’t know the context. So how am I to respond?
        What I do know, and this is a fact, as you can contact Amway and ask yourself, is this:
        (for the market I’m in: North America)
        An IBO cannot make the bonus money on downline volume unless they are retailing (meaning selling product to non-IBOs, as whatever price they want) at least 50 PV (which is about $225 SRP) for that month.
        If the retailing is done offline (meaning that the customer doesn’t order directly from the IBO’s personal website, Amway’s website, or the 800 number)and thus captured automatically, then the IBO needs to record that volume, and assign it to a specific customer, who has a unique customer number.
        If an IBO fails to retail 50 PV, they are still eligible to earn retail profit, and performance bonus money from their personal use and customer volume.
        This rule, with enforcement, went in to effect about three years ago.

        1. Bridgett

          Thanks for responding to my e-mail. I would like your opinion on an article on yahoo entitled, “Skeptics Dictionary Amway”. Seems like you do things the way it is supposed to be done. That is you main focus is retail selling, not recruiting. I bet you do perform well in the business, and I hope and wish you the best. Thanks for not putting on an act and trying to intimidate people.

          1. I think the MLM industry is misunderstood, and so people, when they don’t understand something, they’re first reaction is to fear it, and thus bash it. It’s understandable, though foolish.
            And while I don’t dismiss some folks’ negative experience, it’s 1) not as rampant as the critics say they are; 2) don’t have to do with the Amway Business, but some bad apples who are using the legitimate business as a cover for their shady activities.
            But because people don’t really understand how MLMs work, and specifically how Amway works, they are unable to separate the business opportunity/products/Corporation from some yucky people associated with it.
            They think they are one in the same. And they are not.

        2. Hey Bridget and Idofightback:

          On the over-priced Amway products and why, I refer you both to Dr. Taylor’s “The Truth About MLM”. Go to research at the top, then drop down to ‘High Prices of MLM Products”. Hope you both are doing well.

          1. ibofightback

            Mr. Clements makes a very convincing argument. I have never been in MLM, approached by many, listening to their stories. I decided to do the intelligent thing, and that is to join one, give it my all, and go from there. I know you prefer Amway and that’s find, I will be looking at them again. But, if I have a question about a company, and maybe the type of product, or products they promote can I get your input.

      3. We are not Sales man that we will deliver the products to the customer. We were already customer before joining amway. No w Amway has given us a power to become a partner and further power to become power

    2. Bridgett

      My reply to Amway products being over-priced needed to be explained. A new product travels from the manufacturer, to the jobber, to the warehouse, and so on until it reaches the retail outlet. At each level, the price is marked up for profit. The same happens at Amway, to be able to pay people at the different levels and make profit the price has to increase. This unlike Wal-Mart where they go directly to the manuf. and skip all the middlemen. Even though Amway has great products, I believe I could go to Wal-Mart and get the same product for less. But, I understand about the IBOs. I hope you get my point.

      1. Pete,
        There’s two issues I see with this perspective. First of all is that there are other factors in “value” that you’re not considering when determining over-priced. One is that not everyone has easy access to Wal-Mart, or may not want to shop their because of their labor practices, or perhaps wants to buy “american made”, or wants to have personal customer service etc etc. The very same price on a product may be cheap for one person, and relatively more expensive for another, depending on what other factors they include in “value”.

        Secondly, Amway’s primary brands are Nutrilite, Artistry, and eSpring. They make up the vast bulk of Amway’s revenues. None of them are available at Wal-Mart, so your assertion you can “get the same product for less” is prima facie false. Assuming you mean “equivalent”, rather than “the same”, I’d appreciate it if you can give some examples of products available at Wal-Mart that are the equivalent to Amway’s products and cheaper.

      2. I echo what ibofightback says about comparing apples to apples, and that Amway products and the products for sale at Wal-Mart are not an accurate comparison.
        Here is a post that Amway did almost five years ago about this subject.

        In addition, I’d like to the comment about the distribution model you mention:
        “A new product travels from the manufacturer, to the jobber, to the warehouse, and so on until it reaches the retail outlet…This [is]unlike Wal-Mart where they go directly to the manuf. and skip all the middlemen.”

        Amway too goes directly to the manufacturer…itself. So to use your illustration, Amway wouldn’t be compared to Wal-Mart. The IBO would be, since the IBO, like Wal-Mart is the distributor of products. The IBO is the “retail outlet.”

        1. And I put “retail outlet” in quotes, because the IBO (at least here in North America) is more like a marketer since very few IBOs phyically handle the products or the payments, other than those for our own for personal use.
          Amway handles all those wonderful details. 🙂

  39. john,

    It is none of yours, or anyone’s business what I pay in property taxes, donate to charity, how many dependants I take care of, what I pay sub-contractors, what I pay an employee, what I claim in captial gains, what I claim in income that is not from the Amway Corporation, and all the other non-Amway-business-related information on my tax returns.

    It is ridiculous to “demand” IBOs to share their tax returns as “proof” of Amway income.

    If an person is so inclined, if the information from the Corporation regarding incomes is not sufficient, then they can ask to see copies of an IBO’s checks from Amway.

    But to ask to see tax returns?

    Illogical at best, and insulting at worst.

    Is anyone else noticing any trollish behavior? 🙂

  40. Visioneer,
    When (if) you make platinum, you will have done what the others (just like my emerald) have done. You will have led so many to believe that you are successful tht you will be too ashamed to show your tax returns. Anyone who stands on stage & claims to make X amount of dollars in income and then refuses to ever prove it is someone who is all talk and no action. From the comments I have read on this article even the most ardent supporters of Amquix admit that the words plarinum or emerald are basically meaningless as they may be making money or scraping by. You answered my question exactly as I knew you would. It will be interesting to see how you feel if you discover that your upline has been deceiving you. Ofcourse, you will have to actually be open to the possibility of that being the truth instead of blindly following his stage performances.

    1. John,

      You must be an employee – because someone who owned any kind of traditional business would never make a statement like this in such blind ignorance to the way Tax laws work with home based business.

      A good business owner will have money flowing through corporations in a way that it will make it almost impossible to someone who’s not a professional accountant or lawyer to tell how much they’re making.

      I’m not insulting you in saying this – re-consider this line of thinking, it makes absolutely no sense.

      For example – try to see how much Richard Branson makes by his tax returns. Lol. Good luck man.


    2. Could you send me your tax return sir? social security number, phone number, address, name of your kids, where they go to school? You see anyone who HAS achieved any great level of success knows the greater you get the more private those things become, just ask founder of microsoft, donald trump, or any logical financially wealthy person. Its just common sense.

  41. Why do some blog articles awaken the mischiefmakers like “n.j.n” and “m.n.”, while others don’t budge them from their slumber? Maybe it depends on how scholarly and profound the article is. Wisdom is correlated with stupid attacks in the response thread?

  42. This obsession that some critics have with seeing people’s tax returns is bizarre and illogical.

    Wouldn’t copies of their checks from the Corp be better “proof” for their Amway income?


    1. Agreed – hopefully, if these people are smart with LEGAL home business write offs, they can report a smaller level of income, anyways because of tax advantages.

      Who likes the IRS and gives a crap about what they say, anyways?

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