The Internet War Against Amway Part II

Read part I first – The Internet War Against Amway

The Internet War Against Amway is not a traditional war with General’s directing units to attack our weaknesses (at least I don’t think so!). The war is more like the kind of “war” some religious or political fundamentalists wage. There is a relatively small number of people who believe they know “the truth” and they are obsessed with spreading this “truth” and “saving” people – and they don’t care about any innocent folk who might be hurt in the process, or the possibility that they themselves may be wrong.

Governments and their agencies such as the FTC, judges, sporting superstars, actors. and their managers, top companies and their leaders and lawyers, the UN, UNICEF, historians, business academics etc etc … thousands of these professionals have invested time and money investigating Amway – and decided to support the company. The anti-Amway obsessives however believe that these people have also somehow been duped. They believe that both Republican and Democrat adminstrations in the United States, as well as governments of a multitude of political hues around the world, have either been “bought” or duped for nearly 50 years. It’s ironic that these anti-Amway … dare I say it … “cultists” believe that they alone have “the truth” and they are “saving” people from “evil” by “spreading the word” – yet one of their charges is that Amway is a cult!

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A good example of the activities of one of these anti-amway cultists has occurred in the last few days on probably the most visited web page about Amway after Amway.comWikipedia’s Amway article. Wikipedia is an online encyclopedia that anyone can edit, an open Wiki (a similar open Wiki dedicated to Amway is at www.amwaywiki.com). Not ony is Wikipedia the second most visited site for Amway searches, according to the Edelman Trust Barometer 55% of young American’s consider it “very credible” or “extremely credible”. This is well over double the trust put in corporate advertising and nearly 20% higher than the trust put in  company websites. Only business magazines are trusted more.

The Amway wikipedia article is in my opinion quite heavily biased against the Amway business. At least 3/4 of the article refers to criticism of the business. There is no mention of the number of people it has helped around the world go into business for themselves. There is no mention of the Amway One by One program for children. No mention of sporting sponsorships. No mention of the UNESCO TransPolar model, or support for the Genoa World Expo. There’s no mention of the many awards it’s products have won and only one line referring to Amway’s well known environmental activism and UN award. There’s not even any mention of Alticor’s 2005 award for Corporate Citizenship.

Why so little positive? Well, one reason is Wikipedia’s “Conflict of Interest “, which recommends against anyone with any connection with a company from directly editing articles related to that company. Due to Amway’s business model, this means that not only should Amway employees avoid editing the article, but that by far the majority of people who support Amway, it’s affiliated business owners around the world, are not “allowed” to directly edit the article. Members of the anti-Amway cult are however free to edit as much as they please, and in my opinion they get much greater latitude when they do so. I experienced this last year when I spent several months trying to get some semblance of balance to the Quixtar article. Virtually every one of my edits was challenged, I was threatened with “banning” because I was an IBO, and thus had a financial interest in the company. Eventually I ended up in “mediation” with another editor, a Wikipedia admin no less, who continuously challenged my edits and yet let most criticisms through, usually without question. I argued, and continue to argue, that my “conflict of interest” edits on Wikipedia are covered under Wikipedia’s “Ignore All Rules ” rule, which states –

“If a rule prevents you from improving or maintaining Wikipedia, ignore it.”

The whole process was absolutely exhausting, both in the time it took and the emotional toll of having to battle against even the most innocuous and well supported edits. A number of well-known critics from QuixtarBlog jumped into the fray to attack me, making it even more difficult. The english language Wikipedia articles on Amway and Quixtar typically get well over a thousand visits a day each – why isn’t Amway in there addressing it? Why aren’t IBO leaders? Even without the “ignore all rules” rule, even Amway corporate staff and consultants may recommend changes and back them up on the “Talk” pages, and, if necessary, take issues into mediation and arbitration to get fixed – but it’s not happening! At least 30,000 people are month are getting their education about Amway from Wikipedia, and research indicates most of them may believe it.

But what of the members of the anti-amway cult? Well, for much of this week, the article was even more negative than usual. An editor going by the name of “Eric Arthur B” has been making wholesale additions to the article (they continue as I’m writing this), including personal attacks against me. The changes have violated numerous Wikipedia guidelines such as “No Original Research“, and to write in a manner of  “Neutral Point Of View ” – ie, no blatantly biased editing promoting one perspective. To give you and idea of what “Eric Arthur B” has been saying, here’s one example –

On examination of the published evidence recovered by the 197s FTC investigation, it is impossible to arrive at any other conclusion other than ‘Amway’ was an unviable, centrally-controlled system of economic exchange without a consistent source of external revenue where the overwhelming majority of contributing participants were not receiving an overall material benefit. However, the 1979 FTC ruling failed to identify this situation in accurate deconstructed terms. ‘Amway’s’ owners were, thus, caught running a mathematically impossible scheme designed to be beyond the understanding of both victims and regulators. The company was given a derisory financial penalty and allowed to remain registered in the USA when its owners promised to stop fixing prices and to enforce their own rule whereby each commission agent would have to sell at least 70% value of products on to genuine retail customers or retain at least 1 genuine retail customers.

Not only is this blatantly not NPOV editing, it’s also outright false. For a start, the author isn’t even remotely accurate about the FTC findings and the “70% rule”. I recommend you read MYTH: 70% Retail Sales Rule for an explanation of this piece of dishonesty, a common one spread by members of the anti-amway cult.

Eric Arthur B did make one error not in his favour during these edits – and that was at one stage to forget to “login” to Wikipedia to make his edits. When you do that, Wikipedia instead logs your edits under the IP address of the connection you are using. A quick check of that IP’s location (Paris), confirmed what I already suspected – Eric Arthur B is almost certainly a well known member of the anti-amway cult (wikipedia guidelines prevent me naming him) who has spent more than a decade attacking Amway on the Internet, as well as heavily lobbying organisations such as the DTI/BERR in the United Kingdom and elsewhere.

Perhaps of more concern than the biased editing, and the several thousand readers who have read it and probably believed it, is the almost complete lack of anyone challenging them. One user, Knervma (a critic), did write a note on Eric Arthur B’s talk page recommending he read the “No Original Research” rule, but the edits remained. Indeed a few other editors did some clean up of the text, leaving them essentially intact. By contrast, back in April I added the following text to the article, in order to provide some “balance” to the cult claims of Rick Ross and Steven Hassan –

Author and behavioural scientist Shad Helmstetter spent five years in the 199s researching Amway. In his book ”American Victory: The Real Story of Today’s Amway”, Helmstetter stated ”Working in the field of human behavior, I’ve studied the cults for many years. The Amway business is the opposite of cult psychology.”” With regard to other allegations of Amway being a cult, he replied in an interview “The old myth that Amway is a cult is supported only by people who are either misinformed or uninformed. I would like to examine their research.”

This edit was challenged by numerous editors, including a wikipedia administrator. It was claimed Helmstetter is paid by Amway (he’s not). His PhD qualifications were challenged, with editors claiming the University he claimed to attend did not exist or was a degree mill (I researched it and confirmed he had a legitimate PhD). Finally, the edit was challenged because Helmstetter wasn’t an expert on “cults” but Hassan and Ross are considered to be. Pointing out that neither Ross nor Hassan has done any direct research into Amway, and as such were by no means experts on Amway was dismissed. The only way that text was going to be allowed was if I again went to mediation. Hassan and Ross’s claims Amway is a cult remain in Wikipedia, unchallenged. I haven’t had the energy to pursue it further.

Why is there this bias against Amway, even amongst wikipedia administrators? In my opinion it’s been a self-reinforcing cycle. Wikipedia admins are by their very nature very internet savvy. Where do they get their education? The internet. What does the Internet say about Amway? Well .. you already know the answer to that. This “cycle” has also been evidenced in other areas. DMOZ, a large internet directory owned by AOL and used by Google, Yahoo and others in helping evaluate the importance of websites, refuses, apart from a handful of corporate sites, to list any websites supportive of Amway, including Amway Wiki , Amway Watch , and this site, The Truth About Amway. In contrast, they have an entire section devoted to “opposing views”. Several months ago, major blog host WordPress deleted a blog started by a UK ABO to discuss the developments in BERR vs Amway UK. Their reason? They don’t allow blogs that are supportive of MLM. Of course blogs like “Quixtar is a cult”, complete with posts and images aligning Quixtar with the Nazi’s, are perfectly acceptable.

Where did the DMOZ editors and WordPress administrators get their education about Amway and MLM? The internet.

Wikipedia is a highly popular resource, considered a credible source of information by most people. In the 2 or 3 years I’ve been monitoring the Amway related articles (an easy thing to do), I’ve never seen a single thing challenged or a change recommended by a representative of either Amway or IBO leaders and organisations. Indeed I’ve seen almost no effort by rank-and-file IBOs either. I left Eric Arthur B.’s edits on Wikipedia for several days to see what would happen. No response from Amway or anyone else defending Amway. There is nothing in Wikipedia rules stopping this, though there may be some hoops to jump through (such as submitting all changes via “talk”) but surely the investment needed to fund someone to do this would be a fraction of the cost of even one part of the current “reputation” initiatives, with potentially greater return?

A few thousand people, every day, read wikipedia articles on Amway and Quixtar, and they believe them. In the last month perhaps millions of people have been exposed to the “Now You Know” campaign. Some of them were intrigued and would have done a perfectly sensible thing in the 21st century – hopped on the internet to research further. With a somewhat skeptical view of the corporate ad, they would have googled and visited the company website – again with skepticism. Then tens of thousands of them, perhaps hundreds of thousands, visited Wikipedia, a source they probably trust far more than the company website and company ads. Then amquix, and alticor/amway/quixtar sucks etc etc etc ….

For them, the millions spent on “Now You Know” didn’t improve Amway’s reputation – it damaged it further. The anti-amway cultists won another skirmish, and little effort was made to stop them. How many honest, professional, hardworking Amway Business Owner’s were hurt?

Comment below or Discuss this post on Amway Talk

139 thoughts on “The Internet War Against Amway Part II”

  1. Yup, there’s them rocket “truths” again …

    1993 Amway est. revenues $3.4 billion
    2007 Alticor est. revenues $7.1 billion

    oh yeah, not much difference there. What’s a few billion between friends?

    … another pretty dismal performance by rocket .. by any standards

  2. In 1993, it wasn’t a whole lot higher. Pretty dismal performance by most standards.

    BTW, how much of those billions belong to you two retards?

  3. Rocket said “I have nothing to gain by speaking the truth.

    Maybe that explains why so little of what he says is true?

    But visioneer, give the poor guy a chance. Over 4000 Diamonds, hundreds of new platinums every year just in North America. $7.1billion in sales. 50 year history.

    How could anyone believe it’s a viable business?
    😀

  4. Rocket cracks me up. This is not a viable business? I’ve been involved for all these years because it is a viable business. He forgets that its individual effort that makes it work.
    Once again, his bitter feelings shows through. That’s why I feel sorry for him. Someone who lets bitterness and resentment for past problems continue to control him.

  5. YOU are the disgrace. I have nothing to gain by speaking the truth.

    YOU distort facts to meet YOUR agenda: Attempt to make money through a pathetic sham of a business selling overpriced products.

    You folks crack me up. And most everyone else.

    Fret not,I will be spreading the truth.

    THAT is what really frosts you in the end, isn’t it, winners?

    TTFN!

  6. Oh yeah, I’m the dishonest one – why? because I use the legal definition, confirmed by the FTC, for what a legitimate retail sale is.

    You KNOW the FTC has said about this. You KNOW what laws say – but YOU ignore this because it doesn’t fit YOUR agenda.

    And you call me dishonest? You’re a disgrace.

  7. Oh give me a break. Now you are being completely and utterly obtuse.

    You know damn well what that statistic is all about, and it means that your products are SO COMPETITIVE that less than 5% are purchased from people NOT IN AMWAY.

    People in Amway buy at “wholesale” (which is still overpriced when compared to similar products, by and large). Retail is NOT an ABO buying stuff for himself. Yes, I know. Some ABO’s have even bought from themselves at retail price.

    I don’t know what to say to that, except to have fun paying more money for no reason.

    That means your little gang of wieners in Amway is basically an over hyped buying club. Except for, you know, Amway stuff costs more.

    There is another prime example of you being dishonest and taking a few editorial liberties with the facts.

    I don’t know what your motivation is for doing this, but if you have no tangible success, you are even more laughable than the average Amway guy.

    I think Joecool pretty much hits it on the head when he speaks of your dishonesty.

    Thanks for showing how right he is with your retail sales analysis. I’ll be sure to share it with him. And anyone else who wants to listen.

    That truth thing sure gets in the way, doesn’t it?

  8. Less that 5% of retail sales going to an end consumer?!?!?!?

    That comment just goes to show what a true ignoramus you are. By definition 100% of retail sales go to an end consumer. That’s what “retail” means. In Amway’s case, 100%, not 5%, of the final sale of a product is a retail sale to an end consumer.

    I feel a little sorry for you too rocket, what with the cheese grater and all ….

  9. Not only do I not want your pity, I need it even less.

    Your products are not even in the same ballpark as “retail competitive”.

    Less than 5% of “retail” sales going to an end consumer proves that point rather nicely.

    There are a number of points I’ve brought up to your little mentor running this site that he cannot or will not address.

    See you in a few years when you realize this is a non-viable business.

  10. IBOFB,

    Once again Rocket shows how he just ignores the posts that explains our retail competitve products.He also proves my earlier point of the difference between skeptical and negative people.
    He is just another negative/destructive critic who’s only goal is to hurt this company. All he is is just an outsider looking in trying to come across as an “expert”.
    He probably doesn’t want my pity, but I do feel sorry for him.

  11. I guess I should’ve clarified,

    “Most people would rather pleasure themselves with a cheese grater than listen to you or any other ABO PROSPECT them for Amway”

    Watching you Amway guys justify and spin to create an illusion that you have the best products at the best price in the best business is a form of entertainment for me.

    But now I’m hitting the lake in the boat with the family. See you later today!

  12. You say –

    Most people would rather pleasure themselves with a cheese grater than listen to you or any other ABO talk about Amway

    And here you are, conversing away.

    Need a bandage?

  13. What you don’t say is louder than what you do say.

    You aren’t in any position to show demonstrable success, right?

    Yet you preach to all about how prices are competitive, and suggest people are foolish when they disagree (with good common sense reasoning)

    Which John Gillespie were you referring to that LOVES your hair spray?

    Red Herring? What…were you just looking for a chance to say that term somehow today?

    Prices suck.

    Value sucks.

    I started off in this post telling you why people have negative connotations of Amway. Instead of just accepting me as a negative Nellie, you try and somehow convince me (or yourself) that you are on a higher intellectual plane than me.

    You aren’t, and my original point stands.

    Most people would rather pleasure themselves with a cheese grater than listen to you or any other ABO talk about Amway, and try to justify the prices.

    It’s because you’re wrong about the value of the products and everyone but you and your brethren knows it.

    I do agree endorsements matter, but they mean absolutely squat without value and competitive prices on the products.

    That’s not even getting into the whole reputation problem. Before you even say it, yes you do…

  14. Gee Rocket, ever heard of Marketing? That’s what we do. Endorsements matter. Price comparisons with other quality products matter (and there are *many* hair sprays that cost more than Satinique).

    But I know I’ve got you when you have to resort to straw men and red herrings, and dishonest ones at that. Where have I ever talked “about how easy it is to be successful in Amway”?

    Do you think you’re clever? Making up something I never said and then claiming I’m a liar for saying it?

  15. PS…

    Who the hell is John Gillespie? Is he related to the Smothers Brothers?

    Are you referring to the biologist? Good Gravy, that is sad!

    You are really, really reaching to throw names of bottom tier quasi celebrities that will take money to say they think Amway is OK.

    I’m really at a crossroads of holding you in either higher contempt, of feeling sorry for you.

    You don’t work at a recycling facility perchance do you?

  16. You did not demonstrate why it costs more IBOFB, you simply attempted to explain WHY it costs more but could not QUALIFY the substantial difference in price.

    Since we’re throwing around personal insults, you either don’t see the obvious because it’s so huge and right in front of you or else you are being deliberately obtuse.

    I see right through your little strategy. All you think you have to do is find a similar product which is even more ridiculously overpriced to compare to what Amway offers.

    I’m afraid the general public who you would hope to sell your wares to is just not as stupid as you are, and can smell poor value like a fart in a car.

    $10 for hair spray is AT LEAST TWICE the amount you would pay for a high quality hair spray you would get at (dare I say it?) Wal Mart or Target.

    No, you won’t get rich shopping at those places, but you aren’t getting taken advantage of either by unscrupulous, unproven people such as yourself.

    For someone who talks about how easy it is to be successful in Amway, you sure can’t seem to qualify that particular point either.

    Maybe when you are financially independent through your Amway business people might listen to what you say.

    As it sits, most with a brain and common sense think you’re a liar.

    They’re not wrong either. But, they also don’t buy overpriced vitamins and $10 bottles of hairspray just to be able to say they are in business for themselves.

    To hell with common sense, GO DIAMOND!

  17. Re DMOZ, I raised the issue on the DMOZ forums and was pretty much shouted down.

    This site, The Truth About Amway, is not an “individual distribtuor website” – it’s an opinion site. So is Speaking of Amway and The World According to Bridgett

    Amway Wiki is a Wiki, an information repository

    Amway Watch is a news aggregation site.

    IBOAI and IBOAI Blog are pretty much “IBO union” sites, not rep sites.

    The list goes on and on. There isn’t even a category to place sites in support of Amway!

    I’m in perfect agreement with not listing rep sites that are for product sales or recruiting, such as IBO personalized websites, but to reject wikis, blogs, news aggregation sites etc etc – it’s nothing more than bias and discrimination.

  18. Arthur,
    There have been numerous books written about Amway and MLMs by academics. It is to those I am referring. For example The Direct Selling Revolution by Prof. Dominique Xardell of ESSEC. Prof Charles King at I believe the University of Illinois has run network marketing courses as part of the curriculum there for many years. Dr Charles Paul Conn has written a number of books specifically about Amway. Many many companies around the world work with Amway. They would not do so if it was a “pyramid scam” as many claim. The would not do so if they believed it was detrimental to their companies image. The video Respected People, Respect Amway has interviews with many respected business leaders supporting Amway. Many governments have directly supported Amway in various ways. Just recently the Australian Minister for Tourism welcomed Amway China IBO on their achievers trip to Melbourne.

    Now I’m not saying they support it as in “best business in the world!” type of support, I’m saying they support the company as a legitimate, legal company and they have no problem publicly doing business with Amway. They would not do so if they believed it was a pyramid scam or “borderline legal” or a cult etc etc etc. It’s those type of silly criticism’s I’m talking about, not legitimate ones about whether folk are oversold or pressured to spend too much money on tools etc.

    Regarding SEO, if you read Amway and the Internet – A History Part I (still haven’t finished Part II) you’ll see some historical reasons for the lack of “positive” on the internet. A more obvious one is simply one of time. By far the majority of folk building Amway businesses are doing so in their spare-time, outside of normal work and family life. As such that doesn’t leave a lot of time left for internet activism, even if Amway had allowed. I was in the apparently fairly unique position of (a) having had some success with Amway (b) no longer being able to build Amway and (c) having the Internet skills and time to be proactive in the area. Folk who might have the time are Diamonds and above, however given it takes on average a little under 10 years to qualify Diamond, most of them would have done so before the internet became “big” and simply aren’t that net savvy and don’t realise it’s ubiquituousness. I don’t think they “get it”, something clearly evidenced by the approach of some that people should just “ignore” what’s on the net.

  19. You wrote, above: “Governments and their agencies such as the FTC, judges, sporting superstars, actors. and their managers, top companies and their leaders and lawyers, the UN, UNICEF, historians, business academics etc etc … thousands of these professionals have invested time and money investigating Amway – and decided to support the company.”

    It’s not true that (most of those) decided to support the company. The best you can say is (for government agencies and judges) decided that _prosecution_ of the company is unwarranted, and, for business academics, that they (in general, at least the ones I know personally) state that (at least, the MLM model) can work for some people.

    I can’t see how you can honestly say that governments … decided to support the company.

    I’m not an SEO expert, but I would tend to think that there is a higher concentration of those inside Amway / Quixtar, so that, except for the conflict of interest clause on Wikipedia, I’d expect more favorable coverage on Google than is actually present on the real Internet.

    Full disclaimer. I don’t think the MLM model can work, as a whole. It seems inconsistent with basic economics unless the commission overrides are a more efficient use of what would otherwise be the advertising budget. I and/or my wife belong to two MLM companies because we believed (and still believe, in one case) that the specific product distributed is higher quality than others on the market, even though more expensive.

    Also, I followed you here from Wikipedia, where we’re having a discussion on an article (_not_ the Amway article).

  20. I demonstrated why organic costs more last time, you were simply too obnoxious (or stupid) to accept it.

    I’m not in the hairspray business, but if I was and lived in your area, I’d say sure … Iv’e got an exclusive, salon quality hair spray, used and endorsed by celebrity stylist John Gillespie. It includes moisturisers and meadowfoam seed oil complex to protect your hair from heat and sun damage as well as preserve colour. You’ll find similar quality products from Philip B. cost as much as $30. Try ours for a couple of months for just $10, and if you don’t think it’s good value I’ll give you your money back. How’s that sound?

  21. It’s amazing how you just ignore the post that said how our products compare to the competition. It clearly states, U.S. retail prices. Have you also finally figured out that we have free shipping?
    I guess reading that must be tough for you. Kind of like how you couldn’t figure out that the retail for Daily Multivitamin was cut in half.
    I have had a profitable Amway Global businesss for years now, over a decade. And no, I won’t show you my tax returns. That’s really none of your business.
    I also think that no matter what we said, you wouldn’t shut up anyway. There’s a difference from skeptical and negative people. Skeptical peple just want their questions answered, negative people won’t change their mind no matter what.

  22. Here we go again.

    “Ok, what other organically grown, controlled from seed to serving, scientifically backed nutritional supplements are widely available?

    Maybe THIS TIME you can demonstrate why it costs more than non organic?

    This is starting to sound familiar, and you came up short last time.

  23. Ok, what other organically grown, controlled from seed to serving, scientifically backed nutritional supplements are widely available?

    Who else has IL-1 Heart Health tests and clinically proven to help supplements?

    What other home water system has both UV light and multi-stage carbon block filter with electronic monitoring?

    And I notice you completely ignored the products where there are competitors and Amway is *cheaper*.

  24. Ha Ha!

    I love how you Amway dudes pretend there’s no competition. You say there isn’t so there’s nothing to compare it to!

    There’s always a comparable product.

    Besides, you guys are in it to make money. Why should you have to be explaining with all your might why these products are competitive? Because they aren’t competitive, that’s why.

    In any event, I’m sure neither of you have any demonstrable success to validate your claims of being successful Amway business owners.

    Do you?

  25. Sure it’s a valid question, Rocket, in some places – but why are you posting it here? It’s not valid for us. How often do we need to reiterate?

    Artistry – cheaper than the competition
    Nutrilite – there is no competition, but cheaper than the next best
    eSpring – there is no competition, but cheaper than the next best
    LOC – cheaper than the competition
    Gensona – there is no competition

    Are you sure you’re posting on the right forum?

  26. Possibly we won’t have Walmart’s success, but you really don’t know the answer to that question.

    I also noticed that you don’t read the posts very well before you respond.

  27. Then you won’t have the success Wal-Mart has had either.

    Are those IBO costs? Did they include shipping?

    If you can’t retail competitively, then what’s the point of having a business that tries to sell overpriced stuff?

    A very valid question, that is.

  28. U.S. Retail pricing:
    Nutrilite Daily 90 ct. 11.30
    Simply Nutrilite Supplement pack 30 ct. 24.99
    Simply Nutrilite Twist Tubes 20 ct. 10.99
    Nutrilite ROC20 20 ct. 10.00
    Artistry and Artistry Essentials, on average 1/3 less than a competitive brand.
    SA8, less expensive per use than Tide
    LOC, less expensive per use than the competition.
    Glucosamine7 is new and at an awesome retail price.

    We have made in America products! Amway Global employs American workers! We are the original fair trade company. We have top quality products of good value. Our original product was biodegradeable before most people even knew what that meant. Our laundry detergent is also biodegradeable and still gets top cleaning effectiveness from a national consumer magazine.
    We stopped animal testing back in the late 70’s or early 80’s.
    We’re not the least expensive on everything, but then we don’t want to be. Not Walmart, never will be.

  29. Problems will *always* exist in a business that involves millions of people and that will, due to low barriers to entry, always have high turnover.

    I am however convinced, from monitoring Amway comments on the internet for most of a decade now, that (a)there are far *fewer* problems today than in the past and (b) in the past most of those problems were limited to the same group and it’s offshoots.

    My problem, as I’ve stated before, is that the majority of critics simply fail to understand that there are HUGE numbers of people running successful, professional Amway businesses and that the way critics talk about their experiences is enormously damaging to them.

    Now, in most cases the blame ultimately lies with the IBOs behaving badly, and to a lesser extent Amway for poor oversight, but punishing the IBOs operating professionally is not the way to improve things.

  30. I guess I am

    Because I do.

    I apologize about using your name, I didn’t realize that it was such a big issue to you, sincerely.

    My experiences rely on my Canadian and American experience. When I criticize, I criticize North American Amway. I am not informed enough about the eastern markets to comment, other than the BERR case.

    You can minimize my problems with Amway all you like, the fact is they DO and CONTINUE to exist.

    Otherwise Amway wouldn’t see fit to be changing. N’est pas?

    Prices still are not competitive either.

  31. It doesn’t take a “rocket” scientist to figure out this business isn’t perfect. And there has been many unfortunate situations of people “losing” money, being lied to, etc. But to say anyone not involved with Amway Global has a negative perspective about the business is completely false. Most (not all) of my sphere of influence have a positive perspective about our business. I compare it to eating at a resaurant, if you like your meal you “might” tell one person, if you hate your meal you “will” tell ten people.

    “motivational investment is never stated upfront” What? Every single time I sit down with someone for a follow-up, both financial and time investment is roughly 30% of the discussion. Matching the “cost” with the appropriate goal. But even if someone doesn’t clearly state it upfront, the topic will soon come up. The individual always has the opportunity to way the value of the support materials and choose accordingly.

    Bottom line, whatever critiscm Amway Global has endured, they are 100% committed to making things better. And you’d have to be pretty stubborn to disagree with that.

  32. I have no problems with people using anonymous names, but if at the same time they make false accusations against me, and use my real name despite my constant use of a preferred pseudonym – well … puerile, imbicilic, and cowardly describes it rather well.

  33. Yes I would care to say it to your face. Care to share your name and address so we know who you are so I can? Since you’re so keen on sharing my name with the world, that would be fair enough wouldn’t it?

    What about “motivational profits” are you babbling about exactly? What have I said that isn’t true?

    I’m not “name calling”, I’m describing your actions. Puerile, imbicilic, and cowardly.

  34. “What puerile, imbecilic little cowards you are.”

    Would you care to say something like that to my face?

    Because I doubt you would have the courage to do so.

    From what I’ve observed over the past 10 years, those claims about motivational profits and the motivational profits that make you huff and puff so much are absolutely true. In my experience, and those whom I’ve exposed to the truth. The real truth, not your version.

    Look, you can’t say for that none of those things are true because they simply are.

    And I don’t even resort to name calling, except for your real one.

    Classy.

  35. Can’t demonstrate why? Do you ever bother reading anything apart from your own words? The most recent post on this very site shows XS energy drink being better priced from Quixtar than a similar product from the exact same manufacturer.

    *Numerous* times in the TTAA forums has it been shown that Artistry products are more than competitive – they’re cheaper than the competition, as judged independently.

    Nutrilite has no competition, but has been shown to be better priced than the best alternatives.

    Artistry and Nutrilite cover by far the majority of Amway’s sales. They *are* the business.

    On the Amway Talk forums a price discussion about two Amway Australia partner stores was given just a couple of days ago.

    C’mon, tell me, where have I been dishonest? You come on here claiming dishonesty, with nothing to back it up and, quite pathetically, using my real name, just like your just as pathetic little friend JoeCool does whenever and wherever he can, yet you both hide anonymously.

    What puerile, imbecilic little cowards you are.

    And what an unintelligent coward. You ask what “blanket claims” you made – try scrolling up you twit. I already highlighted them. Oh, sorry, haven’t had time to take that remedial reading course yet? Here’s two blanket claims you made on this very page –

    “anyone who is not in Amway has a negative perspective”

    “the motivational investment is never stated upfront.”

    And you dare to call me a liar.

    Pathetic.

  36. What makes you an expert?

    The facts you distort are pretty much anything you can put a spin on (ie. prices are competitive, even if you can’t demonstrate why)

    What blanket claims am I making? You were the one that introduced the term.

    You’re dishonest, Mr. Steadson. Dishonesty with pure motives is still dishonesty.

  37. “been prospected a whole bunch” – oh yeah, that makes you an expert. Even if you’d been prospected by every IBO in America, you’ve still only met a minority of IBOs. Even if just in America, were you prospected in roughly the same geographical area, meaning they were likely part of the same LOS/LOA?

    What facts am I distorting? What “blanket claims” have I made?

  38. Lots. I’ve been prospected a whole bunch!

    I show them all the information which you try to bury.

    All but one have since left the business because they see reality.

    Not all these little elephants and leprechans you like to write about to salvage a shred of decency about Amway.

    The facts are there, you just choose to distort them. That’s great!

    But you’ll never be able to distort them enough.

    That’s the problem with the truth, it always gets to the surface.

    So I guess my personal experiences and knowledge of current IBO’s and the deception STILL prevalent in Amway refute your blanket claims, using your own logic.

    Prices still suck too.

  39. Sorry, but take a course in elementary logic. My personal experiences DO refute your blanket claims. It only takes one grey elephant to disprove a claim that all elephants are pink.

    While your at it with the courses, perhaps consider remedial reading? I never once “refuted your experience”. Not once. All I did was show a grey elephant. That doesn’t mean there’s no pink elephants – it just means you’re wrong to make statements about all elephants being pink.

    I ask again, how many of the 4.5 million+ IBOs (and that’s just renewed – there’s a lot more first yearers) have you met, in order to be able to make blanket claims about all of them?

  40. I guess we know different people. In Canada, almost everyone knows what Amway is to an extent, and the general consensus is that it’s a pretty poor opportunity.

    As usual, you claim I overgeneralize, then use your personal experiences as proof to refute my alleged generalizations. Yeah, that works.

    Again, the motivational expense isn’t declared up front for the most part. Yes, perhaps a handful do, but show them to me. I’ve never met them, and you don’t really count as a reliable source to me because I consider you to be dishonest at best, and a complete liar at worst.

    You say MY EXPERIENCES aren’t valid grounds for criticism, yet use YOUR EXPERIENCES to refute my experience. Doesn’t work that way, Chuckles.

    You show me a website where leaders openly accept and attempt to refute legitimate concerns with their business. I’ve left many comments which were never published in various places.

    They don’t do it my friend. You can distort and twist and squirm all you like, it just doesn’t change the simple truth of the matter.

    P.S. Amway prices are ridiculous.

  41. Rocket, your comment is full of the usual exaggerations and overgeneralizations of Amway critics. I was not “in Amway” until I was 19, and up until that point, my opinion of it was good. I was not “in Amway” again from 20 to 29 – again, my opinion of it was good. I’ve spoken to many Americans in the past few years who aren’t in Amway. A few had positive words to say. Most had no opinion at all.

    To claim “anyone who is not in Amway has a negative perspective” is simply not true.

    You also claim “The vast majority of people lose money in Amway through the motivational system.”

    This too is patently false. The “vast majority” of people who join Amway never participate in any “motivational systems”. How can they have lost money from “the motivational system” -whatever that is – there is no “the” motivational system – how can they have lost money when they never spent any on it?

    You then go on to say “the motivational investment is never stated upfront.”

    Again, a blatantly overgeneralized statement. Ignoring the fact that there is a lot more to “the systems” than motivation – how in heck do you know what millions of IBOs do? I for one most certainly talk about the “investment” needed when I show the plan. So do many other folk. But here you are claiming we don’t!

    And you claim dishonesty on our part?

    As for leaders not “stepping up” How do you know? There are Diamonds and other leaders who have posted on the earlier forums on this site and now Amway Talk, as have senior members of staff of “system” companies. Crown Jody Victor met personally with critic Deb Masselink as did Triple Diamond Brad Duncan with Preston G.. The IBOAI even launched a blog where anyone can comment and ask questions.

    I agree that “most of the critics are good, honest people who are just trying to prevent people from falling into the category of losing money in Amway” – but many seem to have little comprehension that what they experienced is not necessarily what everyone else experience.

  42. The problem is simply that anyone who is not in Amway has a negative perspective because they either lost a bunch of money in it, or know someone who did.

    I think most people in Amway are good, honest people who are just trying to better themselves.

    I think most of the critics are good, honest people who are just trying to prevent people from falling into the category of losing money in Amway.

    The vast majority of people lose money in Amway through the motivational system. Yes, they get products with their money that they pay, but the motivational investment is never stated upfront.

    It’s dishonest at best, but when most people discover what Amway is all about, they aren’t interested in doing business with a company that runs itself in this fashion.

    Quite frankly, there’s much more to be wary about than there is to be confident about when it comes to Amway.

    The “leaders” not stepping up and engaging critics in an open and meaningful debate simply provides punctuation to my last sentence.

    They either cannot or are not willing to be fair, frank, and honest about their little side businesses they got on the go.

    Hope that helps you see the anti Amway cult point of view…

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